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Soldier beats a woman unconscious, gets a great reference from his commanding officer, avoids jail.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭wonga77


    This is an awful judgement. The judges in this country need a serious overhaul, i mean some of the judgements on various things are mind boggling but this takes the biscuit. Its an awful look for the defence forces too, its a wonder they didnt strip him of his role and send him packing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Ridiculous he got credit for pleading guilty. He initially said she punched him until he was shown the cctv, he had no choice but to plead guilty. Lucky for the passerby intervening, his friends obviously made no effort to stop him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Did he absolutely have to stand up in court and say what he did. Courteous, professional, exemplary…..yes or no? He made a choice to do this, knowing what that woman suffered.

    Also, these words are glowing and are praising and are very impacting…he said them BEFORE a judge made a decision on the case.

    You know what the worst thing Togher could muster up after knowing about what this animal did……He was "exceptionally disappointed." Not sick, horrified, disgusted. Disappointed!!!! Like what you'd feel if he mitched off and went to a niteclub while on duty…….

    I see no defending/justifying for what Togher did here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 522 ✭✭✭csirl


    There's no obligation on any employer to give a reference in a criminal case. It doesnt happen in most cases. Its entirely voluntary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I fully agree that he's a scummer.

    But you can't send one person to prison for a crime and not another for the same crime.

    There are people getting suspended sentences all the time for assault in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Caquas


    This was the ultimate insult from our Defence Forces to that unfortunate woman who gave a very telling answer to the Judge.
    https://www.limerickleader.ie/video/home/1534014/this-is-not-justice-limerick-woman-s-anger-as-man-who-viciously-attacked-her-gets-suspended-sentence.html

    For a senior officer to go into the witness box and sing the praises of the defendant, having seen CCTV of this dreadful attack, is far worse than usual “letter of recommendation” handed into courts.

    Judging by newspaper reports (which may be incomplete), it appears that Commadant Paul Togher would have left that court without uttering a word of condemnation about this appalling attack if he had not been cross-examined by prosecuting Counsel.

    What a farce this makes of the Tribunal of Inquiry which is being set up today and will cost millions to investigate sexual harassment in the Defence Forces

    https://www.newstalk.com/news/women-of-honour-welcome-tribunal-into-bullying-allegations-1737312



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Your point has no relevance here. The judge in THIS case did not send this scumbag to prison because Crotty's career was potentially on the line. You bringing up other cases and prisons full has nothing to do with this judge's decision on this case.



  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Highlighter75


    Most judges in most jurisdictions give leniency for a guilty plea. Just this time the Judge went way too far.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,194 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    It will seriously backfire on that commanding officer. Looks like he is fine with having a violent thug and misogynist / homophobe under his command (one wonders if he gave any thought to the female or gay members of the forces who have to serve alongside that creep).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Nonsense! There has never been a suspended sentence for such a vicious unprovoked attack on a complete stranger.

    This case is clearly aggravated by many factors and should have resulted in serious jail time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    yes. Pleading guilty is mitigating. But this chap initially denied and lied and was forced to plead guilty. 5 years was max sentence. 5 years he absolutely deserved. She could have been killed.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,249 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    he only entered a guilty plea after he'd been shown (presumably) incontrovertible evidence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭AnnieinDundrum


    there are suspended sentences handed out all the time. But in these circumstances… a man trained to fight.. and a defenceless civilian I can’t see the logic for a suspension.
    this wasn’t a bunch of lads having a punch up after closing time. The man was using homophobic slurs and attacked a woman.

    And today he gets to walk down the road a free man… well not quite as I’m sure the army will be looking into it.


    as for the reference… we all know about basic references… joined the company (date) never in trouble, end of!

    The judge should be asked to explain his sentencing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭Celticfire


    Once a case goes to court the victim is practically forgotten about. The justice system and the judiciary don't give a damn about the victim and what they went through its all about the poor alleged perpetrator.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The judge has already "explained" his judgment/decision in his reasons/remarks for a suspension.

    Judges are pretty powerful people in Ireland, and seem to be above explanation and above reproach.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,711 ✭✭✭This is it


    Unfortunately that's not the case, this judge has history of letting violent scumbags walk free.

    A homeless man kicked and punched over 100 times, in a random attack. Victim heard pleading with them to stop beating him…

    How can this judge sleep at night.

    https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/teen-who-took-part-in-savage-attack-on-homeless-man-walks-free-from-court/a1769685260.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 576 ✭✭✭Hungry Burger


    I’d say if he was an Asylum Seeker and not a soldier some of the pitchfork wielders here would be supporting the decision 🤣

    Fact is there’s an issue with the entire justice system, way too soft.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Seems very apparnet in this case. But not all cases. Plenty times we get it right and we dish out justice. There are some wonderful people doing this country a great service in the justice system. But, at times I feel there are some really bizarre and poor calls made. Overall I would have to say we are too soft on serious crime. Much too soft. And it's a huge reason why scumbags continue to commit serious crime



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    My understanding is the 3k was paid with no prejudice towards any civil proceedings that may arise from the case. In other words, she can still sue the pants off him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Caquas


    The Army needs to court martial Pvt. Crotty forthwith or the top Brass will be hauled over the coals by the politicians who see the public outrage at this case.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Pretty much, they're one of the lynchpins in how power is divided in the State between Legislature, Executive and the Judiciary. It's almost impossible to remove them too due to the Constitution, they can only be removed for 'stated misbehaviour or incapacity'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,887 ✭✭✭SteM


    Wondering how long it would be before someone brought up asylum seekers. People just cant help themselves. Let's just discuss this case without bring up external nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,611 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    There would be no prejudice either way. This was a criminal sentencing hearing.

    I have seen cases of less serious assault where people have arrived to court with 5k and were told go and get another 5k immediately.

    It is dealt with there and then.

    3k is an absolute joke.

    Civil proceedings if she does go down that route can take years and he can refuse to pay for years where she will have to take another case to force him to and even then it will be some garnishing of salary if has one.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,797 Mod ✭✭✭✭artanevilla


    It's actually frightening that this guy didn't get a jail sentence, nevermind a long one. The judges comments are astounding however just because he didn't go to prison doesn't mean it won't affect his career, that wasn't up for the judge to decide. He is still a convicted criminal.

    The defence forces have a process to go through, they can't just boot someone out without following due process, it leaves themselves open to legal action by this scumbag.

    In defence of the officer, he was called to court to give evidence of his dealings with the guy, he could only comment on what he knew in his dealings, if we take the officer at his word, the guy was possibly a professional and courteous soldier. Remember this evidence is given under oath. You are only allowed answer the questions you're asked, and you have to answer truthfully.

    I suspect the army will bin him and if not it will absolutely affect his career progression. No way this guy makes it past private. He will go into the job market having an early discharge from the defence forces and a criminal conviction. His career is fucked, which makes it all the more bizarre that that is the reason the judge gave for not imprisoning him. It just goes to show how far removed the judiciary are from society.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Indeed….and I just want to add that judges serve an extremely important part in any democracy/society. They absolutely need power and some autonomy. I understand this. And there are some fantastically brilliant minds in the judiciary. But that doesn't mean they should have complete carte blanche all the time. This case, judgment has horrified people, and rightly so!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,384 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Every Judge in every juristriction will give leniency for a guilty plea, it's not because they want to but because they have to.

    A guilty plea saves the state enourmous money and time and if a Judge does not acknowledge this with a more lenient sentence than the maximum allowed the defendant will have the sentence overturned on appeal.

    The injustice in this case is the Judge was far too lenient in the sentence he imposed, his suspending the entire sentence imposed was ridiculous and his attitude towards the victim was abbhorrent.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    That's exactly what they're doing now but they had to wait for the outcome of the civilian criminal trial. And just as an FYI for anyone interested he could still technically be jailed if they do court martial him - https://www.military.ie/en/public-information/courts-martial/classes-of-courts-martial/

    Now they may just choose to dishonorably discharge.



  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Highlighter75


    He'd never get the max after a guilty plea. But 3 years would have been an expected sentence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,493 ✭✭✭tohaltuwi


    re Snapchat, there’s guys you might meet on Tinder who want to use Snapchat simply to send disappearing dick pics. Ask women who have used Tinder, a lot of dicks out there. Snapchat is unfortunately too popular among guys of all ages, not just a teen’s app. But you know they could be trouble if they want to use it, hence instant blocking.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,797 Mod ✭✭✭✭artanevilla


    It should be noted as well that an officer/private relationship is purely professional as well. The Commandant would have had zero social interaction with Crotty in or out of the workplace. It's a hierarchy, they don't really mix.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Yes, I understand he may not have gotten the max sentence

    Here's one for legal eagles: does a guilty plea absolutely mean you CANNOT receive the max sentence, or can a judge use discretion and still apply a max sentence?

    In murder a guilty plea still means a "mandatory" life sentence…just one I thought of. Only sentence available, so little different I guess



  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Highlighter75


    There's no advantage in pleading guilty to murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,585 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    What were the lads who were with this scumbag doing while he assaulted this lady???



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I know…I juts added it….still wondering on my actual question though



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,384 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Just because someone comes to court with compensation and is told by the judge to go away and get more or go to prison does not mean the victim cannot later take a civil case for compensation.

    In this case I very much doubt the victim will have her considerable medical expenses covered by the derisory sum the judge ordered Crotty to hand over.

    Crotty is now convicted of the assault so that makes civil proceedings more straightforward.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Highlighter75




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    No. Just asked a question is all. Maybe someone from legal background can answer.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭I told ya


    A number of points arise.

    1. The DF could not take any action while the case was before the courts. Now as the case has been dealt with the DF can take action.
    2. As regards the officer who gave the reference, a colleague here at work was in the PDF. His view is that the officer was not his CO but his company CO, by virtue of his rank. This matter would have been referred by the CO to Brigade HQ and further up the command structure. The officer would simply have looked at his personal file, spoken to some of the NCOs and had his own experience to rely on. And discussed amongst the officers. At the moment, I have to give the benefit to the officer that he was truthful to the Court. My colleague did not know under what laws/rules the DF would give a character reference other that in his time in the PDF it was custom and practice where soldiers were before the courts on criminal charges. This case may well lead to a change, for the better.
    3. He is also of the view that the wheels are now in motion to dismiss the soldier.

    In my view, the sentence and the judge's remarks are totally out of order and I feel the DPP will appeal.

    I can only wish the young lady all the best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Fully agree with you!

    He should in Prison, but for some reason he's not. And there are ALOT of people who should be in prison in this country and are not.

    And what it boils down to is having somewhere to put them.

    Example: There's a well known little scrote in D2 who at the age of 16 had racked up over 116 convictions for burglary, assault, theft, etc. (This was pre covid). A judge sentenced him to 5 years for something he did at the age of 16 citing "You're going to kill someone". Garda rang Oberstown, who said they had no space for him. He stayed in Jail at Pearse Street station for a week and they had to let him go, because they don't have the facilities to keep someone long term.

    As a Victim fighting for justice in our legal system, that's what you're up against.

    It's not just judges making poor calls or character references, it's the whole damn thing. The legal system is effectively part of the infra in Ireland and as with the rest of the Infra in Ireland, it is inadequate.

    Edit: Just to add to this. the DPP do not lead the prosecution in cases like this. For cases like this it's the arresting Garda who leads the prosecution. so you effectively have a Garda up against a senior legal expert (Solicitor/Barrister - probably paid for by the taxpayer) in court…. like it's wonder we get any convictions at all, let alone proper sentences. Ireland is the one of the only countries in the world where this happens. The DPP only get involved very serious cases (murder, etc)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,249 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that was one minor detail of the media coverage i was seeing; several stories referring to crotty as an officer; a term i had previously assumed that journalists understood the meaning of, but clearly not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I’m not sure why you are so agitated about Togher’s choice of words. I think that “exceptionally disappointed” sounds like a professionally worded description of his feelings on the matter. The lasd thing you need is trained military personell to lose their composure and give way to emotive displays. I think you are angry at the wrong person here.





  • Hopefully some vigilante kicks the sh*t outta him, that would be justice..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Not agitated at all. Just observant.

    And why exactly is the last thing we need for a member of the defence forces to be too “emotive?” Would our National security become vulnerable or something?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,495 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    So he has to report back to his senior officers, grand.

    Why did he have to address the court? What has that got to do with reporting back to the defence forces?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    No, but you don’t want them to make decisions based on personal feelings, do you? The same way you want a surgeon to remain detached and keep a cool head.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,611 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    On the face of it the mitigation in this case is quite high.

    Guilty plea, his young age, first time offence, his background and work history. It wouldn't be unique that a suspended sentence was handed out in these circumstances.

    The judge was correct when he stated the case could drag on for another year or 2, but the claim that the victim was spared the hassle of a trial is an assumption. She could have welcomed a trial to get every detail of what he did on the record. She seems a very strong person. It's not clear in the article but she appears to suggest she would have welcomed a trial, that she was traumatised anyway.

    There was multiple witnesses and the attack was recorded, so the Judge should have gave him zero for a guilty plea. Even considering the cost and timing. Guilty pleas should definitely be rewarded, but this isn't one of them.

    The aggregating factors in this case are immense. Young lady walking home from her job attacked. That is about as serious as it gets in terms of circumstances. The sustained brutality of the assault and the resulting physical and mental injuries pushing this again into the higher bracket of seriousness.

    But what certainly pushes it into a custodial sentence is 2 factors. The fact he grabbed her hair, effectively held the back of her head as he punched her, that's how you kill someone, your head cannot go backwards to at least minimise the blows.

    And the icing on the cake for me was gloating on social media "hours later". What sort of fúcking cretin gloats about beating up a girl to his friends?

    The DPP should definitely appeal it if they actually have grounds to do so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    It wouldn't be justice at all - the judge in this trial is still free to go on making horrendous judgements like this as he has in past and will likely continue to do.

    At this stage it's judges who are denying justice to victims. The untouchable legal caste

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,888 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I think we need a mechanism to impeach judges in this country over madness like this. It's absolutely insane. As to the Army - WTF? Are they trying to emulate the Russian Army or something? Giving cover for violent sociopaths is something I'd expect from the Russians as they need bodies for their insane war of aggression in Ukraine, but what on Earth are officers of the Irish army trying to accomplish here?



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