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Could Ireland survive without importing anything?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭rock22


    As far as I know, we don't even produce enough seed potatoes for our needs so I would assume the same applies to other seeds.

    Pharmaceutical factories cannot be simply switched to producing different drugs that we might need.

    Even if we could breed draft horses in enough numbers have we tackle , ploughs etc. to work the land using horses?

    It would be interesting to look back at the emergency and see where we fell short



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    If we couldn't import energy, society would more or less break down. How would we generate electricity? We couldn't farm on a large scale so our food production would probably be down 90%. Food would be very limited. We are only 3 meals away from people getting desperate. No tractors or other agricultural machinery. No transport. No medicine. No food processing or manufacturing. No water treatment etc.

    I can fish, have guns and lots of ammo so I could hunt. I don't think I'd starve or be an easy target for someone trying to take my stuff.

    As for most other people, it's hard to see how they'd survive a couple of winters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,249 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Wind power? Bio fuels? Hydrothermal? Peat, coal. All less useful than oil currently but could at least keep essentials going.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Lots of people can fish. There's not enough fish go go around.

    And guns would be the thing people would be trying to take.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,249 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Plenty of fish in the sea! Good luck taking the guns off those that have them!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,769 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Here on planet Earth, guns are quite often taken off those who have them. They are among the most-stolen items in the US. I would expect something similar in the Brave New World we are contemplating here. Both guns and ammunition (which, as time went on, would in increasingly short supply, since it couldn't be replaced once used) would be prime targets for theft.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭the-island-man


    I'm based in the west so may have a skewed picture but I feel like a lot the Infrastructure, machinery and knowledge around tillage has been lost. Left to rot in favour of beef and dairy farming.

    And to a lesser machinery for scaled up production of vegetables.

    It would be a common sight when I was growing up to see fields of barley, Corn or Veg and you'd see the combine snailing it's way through narrow byroads during summer! We also had a functioning mill in our parish complete with a kiln! All gone now.

    I see this as a major threat if something like op describes were to happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,249 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    US is awash with gunsso no wonder. I'd imagin ein such a scenario they would be prized and carefully hoarded?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,769 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    And all the more targetted for theft. Scarcity would give them additional value, over and above the value they would have anyway as a tool for getting food. A higher value makes them more stealable, not less. Yes, gun-owners would be incentivised to protect their guns, but it is the high theft rate that would incentivise them.

    There's a widespread notion that, if you have guns, burglars will leave you alone. But a few minutes thought will show that this is wildly unlikely to be true, and a few minutes research will show that it isn't true. And I don't see anything about the hypothetical here that would make it true in this case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Likewise, being able to produce bullets will soon become very important. It is something one can do at home in small quantities, with some training and specialized equipment, but all of that would become super high value as well.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,769 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Is it something one can do at home without requiring either specialised equipment that is imported or raw materials that are imported?

    (SFAIK no copper has been mined in Ireland since about 1980, and without copper you don't have brass, and without brass you don't have casings. Used casings can be recovered and refilled, but there's a limit to the number of times this can be done. We could have a cottage industry of recovering and refilling casings, but it would produce ammunition of very dubious quality and I think the industry would have a limited lifespan — sooner or later some imported input would be required.

    I suppose it's possible that there may be copper deposits in Ireland that could be reopened and further mined, so that new brass casings could be fabricated but even that assumes that the mining and refining could be done without requiring any imported inputs.

    And that's just copper — only one of the materials required to produce a bullet.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Yes. Lead is still pretty commonly available. Copper is sufficient for jackets.

    Black powder is doable with potassium nitrate (here, horsey horsey), charcoal and sulfur. Nitroglycerin would be much harder and dangerous to make, but hey, https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+make+nitroglycerin

    If you want to make smokeless powder, you need nitroglycerin and clay. Nitroglycerin is used mixed with clay for smokeless powder which is what is used in most bullets. Dynamite, too.

    I am far from current on the techniques, having left the USA a fair few years ago, but that's the gist of it. Mucking about with this stuff is nasty business, too, lead fumes, ughh.

    As for specialized equipment, if one is content to slowly produce one cartridge at a time, I don't think it's particularly hard, you basically pour gun powder into the brass and crimp a bullet onto it.

    One other thing is you'd need primers, hmm, no doubt there's a youtube video for that. Likewise, you can make cartridges from used copper pipe.

    Copper was used prior to brass in the old days, it doesn't work nearly as well tends to deform badly, but when it's all you have….

    Hmm…youtube keeps giving: how to make home-made primers:



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,769 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Fair enough, so. All we need is a functioning copper mine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,569 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,569 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Burglars targeting households likely to have guns would be fools not to pack heat themselves.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    not the sea we'd be concerned about, but some estimates place the population levels of some fish in the north sea at possibly 1-2% of pre-industrial levels.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Ever tried to take a gun from someone who knows how to use it?

    Most of the population don't have fishing gear and won't be able to get it so they won't be able to fish. There won't be enough of anything to go around.

    And those with guns will have the capability to take stuff off of those without them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    How do you make biofuels with no imported energy? Hydrothermal requires electric pumps. How do you transport peat and coal? Horse and cart is all we'll have without importing fuels.

    Mining coal and harvesting peat would have to be done by hand.

    Solar/wind equipment wouldn't last long without spare parts lubricants etc, 99%+ of which we would be able to make.

    We'd be back in the 1700's if we couldn't import anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,249 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Solar and wind could last 20-30 years I don't know the length of the scenario but would it be more than 5-10 years?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Somewhere along the line the infrastructure would break down. It could be at the electricity generation end or the supply end or at house/business end. It could be something big or even as small as a fuse or a lack of hydraulic oils/lubricants etc. and I'd guess we wouldn't have the capacity to make fuses or much else really without importing materials, machines etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    And after that the quarries will provide the raw materials to build the solar panels and turbines.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,249 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I doubt that in most cases we could after some redirection of existing industry.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    How would the existing industry be repurposed if we couldn't bring materials, equipment etc into the country?

    How would they be powered?

    Industry can be repurposed now. If an industry needs a lathe, or a drill, or other equipment, it can be imported. Stop imports and repurposing industry becomes next to impossible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,218 ✭✭✭nachouser


    The op hasn't logged in for a few weeks so I assume they're land logged on one of the nations we can no longer deal with in the scenario they concocted for the thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,769 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Ever tried to take a gun from someone who knows how to use it?

    People who know how to use guns have their guns stolen from them all the time. It's extremely common. I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you'd imagine it would be uncommon in the scenario we are considering.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    This thread is comedy gold.

    All these “solutions” on how Ireland could survive based off what we have…brilliant. I needed the laugh today.



  • Registered Users Posts: 461 ✭✭Kingslayer


    I hadn't thought of it before, but there will be riots in the street when the tea and coffee runs out!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭Bobson Dugnutt


    I couldn’t survive without a few mugs of tea per day. Doubt a lot of my fellow citizens would either.

    Being young is a great advantage, since we see the world from a new perspective and we are not afraid to make radical changes - Greta Thunburg



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,249 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    'survive' must have taken on a new meaning of course you would not saying that the withdrawal would be easy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,328 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Even with infinite tea and coffee supplies, we couldn't waste electricity on something so frivolous as boiling a kettle.

    I can't believe this thread is still going on. The answer is an unequivocal "no, we'd be fncked altogether".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,486 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    People were able to boil kettles long before there was electricity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14 Moody Bollocks


    Of course we survive but we'd quickly revert to a pre-industrial society.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,249 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Our way of life would be changed totally but not pre industrial completely. All that technology would still be there and redirected to the new norm.



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