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Soldier beats a woman unconscious, gets a great reference from his commanding officer, avoids jail.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Yes I’ve raised this already - while people may not like the “regulations”, that officer was only doing his job as far as I can tell- there is a senator raising questions next week (a former serving officer I believe) , in relation to why this officer was asked to read out the defendants record given there was no trial - that part is still not clear.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,345 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i was wondering the same; and also whether the concept of double jeopardy applies across civilian and military courts.

    i.e. is it the case that the military court cannot punish him for a crime he has already received a conviction for, only leaving them with the option of being a disgrace to the army (whatever the correct terminology is!), say, which is a separate offence in military law?



  • Registered Users Posts: 55,453 ✭✭✭✭walshb




  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Baba Yaga


    now that this has gone through the civilian courts and now it seems hes up in front of a military court can the Army decide to jail him according the military type of laws or is it totally different?


    "They gave me an impossible task,one which they said I wouldnt return from...."

    ps wheres my free,fancy rte flip-flops...?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    no idea- I imagine something like RTÉ 5-7 live radio show or whatever it’s called these days would have an “expert” on to discuss the options open to the legal people involved now in the defence forces proceedings



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  • Registered Users Posts: 55,453 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Another glaring point is Crotty saying he knew he effed up and ran away, yet hours later he's on social media boasting about beating a woman unconscious. Deranged individual.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,345 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Friends of his remained at the scene, I believe - any hint as to whether they were army buddies?



  • Registered Users Posts: 55,453 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Is the maximum sentence for "assault causing harm" 10 years? It seems to be now, but back when this crime too place, it was 5 years?

    If appealed, will the new 10 years sentence be the benchmark?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,163 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    I'm glad to hear that. Wasn't having a pop at you at all. If you scroll back through my posts, you will see exactly what retribution I think that scumbag should endure.

    To thine own self be true



  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Yes, there is a lot of absolute nonsense in this thread about the CO.

    He did what he was obligated to do.

    If he was asked by the defence (who will already know the answer before they ask the question) "was Mr Crotty a well regarded soldier in the DF" or whatever, and he said he was a "scumbag and an awful soldier" when in fact the DF viewed him as an exemplary soldier then he'd be in contempt of court and open to prosecution. It would make a total nonsense of the trial.

    People are misdirecting their frustration.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,428 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    I think what confuses people is that if Togher is only there to confirm the soldiers record, why is it full of positive adjectives for Crotty?

    "Exemplary, courteous, professional and disciplined" are not statements of fact, they are subjective.

    If Togher was compelled to be there then thats one thing, but why not just confirm facts? Confirm that he was currently serving, confirm that he had no prior disciplinary incidents.

    You can do that without offering personal, subjective remarks as to character. Hell, any HR department would tell you that when giving a reference these days you just stick to dates and avoid the opinions.

    Thats what moves this from ticking a box to actively giving a glowing reference. He choose to use those words, I don't see that he had to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,428 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    "was Mr Crotty a well regarded soldier in the DF"

    "He had served without incident and had been well regarded. There had been no disciplinary actions to this point". Nobody would have batted an eyelid if Togher said that.

    "scumbag and an awful soldier" is no different to "exemplary, courteous, professional and disciplined", they are just opposite ends of the scale. Togher could easily have chosen an objective middle ground without any censure but instead he chose to be glowing.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,345 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Was he placed in the witness box? As it was not a full trial, he wouldn't have been, I assume?



  • Registered Users Posts: 55,453 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    And his assault was “totally out of character? “ How can be know this? Does he hang out with Crotty 24/7? Does he really know him that well? Crotty is 22 or so. Barely lived..

    Togher went too far. And that’s clear to me.. absolutely no need to either.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    He didn't say "Exemplary, courteous, professional and disciplined" though, not in the single superlative answer like you are suggesting. The media quotes make it clear that these words were used but not all together.

    We have no idea what he was asked. The defence are allowed to ask leading questions.

    "Would you describe Mr Crotty as an exemplary or poor soldier?" → "Exemplary"

    "Would you describe Mr Crotty as courteous or rude?" → "Courteous"

    "How did the Defence Forces view Mr Crotty as a soldier." → "His record is that of a professional and disciplined solider".

    He has to answer purely on the facts. He can't say "the Defence Forces thought he was grand" if in fact he was seen as a professional and disciplined soldier.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,345 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I would assume 'neither' would be a valid answer to some of those questions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,428 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    No, the RTE article gives those words as one quote.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2024/0620/1455752-soldier-assault/

    His superior, Commandant Paul Togher, gave evidence that he was an "exemplary, courteous, professional and disciplined" soldier.



  • Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭Juran


    Justice system a joke in this country. Tax evasion for a couple of grand will get you a few years, under paying VAT eg. Garlic guy, gets you 5+ years. God help the welfare pension fraund granny in October, she'll probably get life !

    But beat an innocent lady black and blue,resulting in with serious medical injuries plus mental health impact, and walk free.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,428 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Indeed. Again, that phrasing is not from his service record, that is opinion from Toger and as such he does not have to give it. He chose to give it.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Does he hang out with Crotty 24/7?

    He wasn't giving answers based on knowing Crotty 24/7, I think this is maybe where you are getting confused!

    He was answering the questions solely from the perspective of being his commanding officer in the DF. His answers can ONLY be based on the facts he knows in his capacity as his CO in the DF.

    He was there answering questions as the guy's boss, not as his mate. He was there providing the court with the DF's factual perspective on the lad, not to defend him.

    The guy could have been a courteous and exemplary soldier. The issue here is this fact should have been totally irrelevant, the issue is not that his CO stated this in court.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 55,453 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I have read your points and think they are very lucid and sound. I just have an uneasy feel about the "testimony" of the CO, is all



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭extra-ordinary_


    I already admitted to that in a previous post, but there are some on the thread so aroused, that they cannot bear to have any sort of discussion on anything unless it's an echo of their own viewpoint.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    The issue for me is the judge shouldn't have taken it into account, or it shouldn't have mattered.

    The defence asked questions of the CO for a reason, because they knew his DF record was clean and he was a very highly regarded soldier. It's the defence's job to get this info out in court.

    But I think the crime was bad enough that these answers should have provided no mitigation, and his DF career should have been irrelevant in sentencing. He should be doing time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I read that more carefully than you, it seems.

    The obligation is to attend the court, to cooperate with the court’s obligations and to report back.

    It appears that he was called by the defence in order that he could attest to the defendant’s good character and service. He did so without demur or qualification or even reference to the appalling crime to which the defendant had already pleaded guilty. It was only because the Prosecution Counsel chose to cross-examine him that he was obliged to say anything about it. (The Tánaiste says he was cross-examined by both Defence and Prosecution but I assume the Tánaiste mis-spoke because it only happens to a hostile witness).


    But you may be right on one point. There is a great danger that Cmdt. Togher was acting within current military regulations. If so, the new Tribunal of Inquiry needs to extirpate this culture of cover-up. For starters, how many of his friends who stood by while he committed this horrific crime are also members of the Defence Forces? Imagine if their shameful inaction was no offence under our military regulations!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,718 ✭✭✭tohaltuwi


    I’d hope it’s not like RTE (NOT complaining seriousness of it here) in that they wouldn’t accept his resignation and get to disgrace him with a court marshall and dismissal in a state of dishonour.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,745 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    You can't just resign from the Defence Forces.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,718 ✭✭✭tohaltuwi


    Natasha O'Brien being interviewed by Cormac Ó hEadhra atm, what an impressive lady she is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Babyreignbow


    https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0621/1456015-crotty-reaction/

    Tom Clonan gave his thoughts on the matter earlier.

    Former Defence Forces captain and Senator Tom Clonan said Defence Forces officers are "witnesses for the State, they are not witnesses to fact when soldiers are tried for criminal offences," in civilian courts.

    Senator Clonan said the use of the word "exemplary" that was read into the court record as part of the soldier's service record emanated from a "series of categories of your performance appraisal".

    Senator Clonan said next week he intends to seek clarification from Minister for Defence Micheál Martin and from the military authorities "precisely what was the context within which these words were used" in court, which he said he was not "100% clear about".

    The fact he plead guilty meant there was no trial, or witnesses or jury.

    If a thousand suns were to rise
    and stand in the noon sky, blazing,
    such brilliance would be like the fierce
    brilliance of that mighty Self.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,329 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    No, frankly it's a bit weird. "courteous"?? I mean, how many soldiers would ever have "rude" on their official military record? Why would they mark down that he was "courteous"? Do soldiers even have a choice about being polite or not? Isn't that kind of the point of a military hierarchy?

    Second, how would his commanding officer know that attacking a woman after being out drinking was "out of character" for Crotty or not. Had he ever seen him after an evening out?

    It looks to me as though he chose to use positive, and quite subjective, words to describe the convict. TBF it reminds me very much of previous cases in the Irish justice system where a convicted man was given a glowing record by someone in authority. The whole thing should be stopped, but the reason it needs to be stopped is because of men like Togher choosing to be supportive of the criminal.



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  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Which, if my interpretation is correct, again suggests that the CO was not giving his personal opinion of the individual but the official DF view on him, with "exemplary" being an official characterisation of someone's performance.



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