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Soldier beats a woman unconscious, gets a great reference from his commanding officer, avoids jail.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,289 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Not in the least bit odd. They’d have a procedure to follow. They can’t just hand him his sandwiches wrapped in a map.You don’t know they aren’t initiating such a procedure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 768 ✭✭✭useless


    This makes it even worse. If it was Nolan we could console ourselves that at least only one member of the judiciary appears to be crazy



  • Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭Babyreignbow


    It's clear he was providing reference based on a performance appraisal, it's not so clear in what context. This was a sentence hearing not a trial I think is the gist of Clonans remarks so it would be interesting to know how it came to have a state witness in such circumstances. I'm not privvy to how the judicial system works but it seems to be a case of "just for the record".

    If a thousand suns were to rise
    and stand in the noon sky, blazing,
    such brilliance would be like the fierce
    brilliance of that mighty Self.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭csirl


    Court proceedings such as this DONT require any employer to appear in court re an incident that happened outside the workplace.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,289 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    He couldn’t really. He’d have to report in what was in the record. Terms like ‘exemplary’ were used, so that’s what had to be read into evidence.

    The ‘character reference’ argument in here is a red herring.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭tohaltuwi


    Tom Clonan gave some idea about how these terms are designated after measurement in the context of a soldier’s conduct whilst on duty.

    There are people who can be very well behaved & disciplined in one context, especially on duty as a well-trained soldier, but away from duty pour drink or whatever else into themselves, and all the Jekyll & Hyde-ness, bitterness, & feral-ness within unleashes itself.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,302 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    They may be subjective, but that doesn't mean that they are not part of the Defence Forces official record. I don't know about how Irish evaluations work, but in the US form, I get to write an entire paragraph on "character" which includes values, ethos and discipline. Subjective or not, they are the basis for a soldier's evaluation. As a professional miltary organization, I can't imagine the Irish system is far different.



  • Registered Users Posts: 529 ✭✭✭Madd Finn


    Where did I say he was "properly punished"? I didn't. The guy's a scrote. A disgrace to the Defence Forces, the country and the whole male species.

    All I'm saying is, his life is not going to be a bed of roses for the next few years. Frankly, it's open season on the little turd. He daren't infringe again.

    I have no sympathy for him. That young woman could have been my daughter.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,232 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    You can't just resign for the defence forces and now that the civil proceedings have finished the defence forces have confirmed that military law proceeding have commenced. [at least on the retired members forum].



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭SteM


    If there was no trial how could the defence ask leading questions?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,817 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    This whole sentence is a joke but I had to pick up on two things that the judge took into consideration.

    He said that the defendant pleaded guilty early. From what’s been reported had the CCTV not been there he’d have kept his innocence up and peddled his lies about the young woman starting it. He didn’t plead guilty out of some feeling of remorse for what he did, he did because he was banged to rights.

    Also he ran home as he knew he had “fucked up” yet bragged about it on social media hours later. How does that work exactly ?

    Edit: changed thing to sentence so it’s clear what I mean.

    Post edited by Itssoeasy on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭Caquas


    No, this is nonsense. The CO did not have to say this thug was an “exemplary”, “courteous”, “professional” and “disciplined” soldier. If he had anything to say, he should have begun by saying how disgusted he was by the crime to which the defendant had already pleaded guilty.

    You're doing the Defence Forces no favours by claiming this was what he was "obligated to do". If so, all hell is going to break loose at the Tribunal of Inquiry.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    If he had anything to say, he should have begun by saying how disgusted he was by the crime to which the defendant had already pleaded guilty.

    This is not at all how the courts work. You don't get to speak your mind in court.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,428 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    So when he was saying that beating a woman unconscious was out of character for Crotty, that was him reading from the record?

    Must be one hell of a detailed record.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    You are still mixing up two things.

    He is answering solely from the perspective of his CO. If his DF record is exemplary, if he has never had any issues or shown any tendency to this sort of violence then from the perspective of the DF this would be out of character. The character being the character the DF know him to be, which again, is all that the CO was answering for.

    They aren't saying "this guy is a really great guy" as some sort of general statement.

    They are saying "while this guy is at work with the DF he is a really great soldier". That's it, nothing more. The other half of this sentence could be "while this guy is at work with the DF he is a really great soldier but we hear he's a scumbag outside of work", except but they aren't allowed to say the second bit as it's entirely hearsay from the perspective of the CO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,428 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    If he is just there to read from the record, why is he saying that beating a woman unconscious is out of character? I mean, that is literally a character reference in its purest form?

    People want to claim that Togher had no option but to report exactly what was in some service record, but the words being being reported do not square at all with a simple recitation of facts.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    If you read up, you will see it has been clarified that terms like "exemplary" are official performance evaluation terms used by the DF.



  • Registered Users Posts: 86,083 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    I think Natasha should demand a meeting with MM, Helen McE and the head of the Irish army and Limerick barracks officer in charge



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,428 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    I'm not mixing anything up, you are not seeing my point.

    Togher is making statements as to character and I still do not accept that he was legally required to. People saying he is there to report the facts, just to repeat what is in the service record, but then at the same time we hear quotes like this:

    Comdt Togher said he was "exceptionally disappointed and surprised" by the evidence he had heard as it was "very out of character" for the defendant

    That isn't from a service record, that is literally opinion on the part of Comdt Togher and there is no legal reason he has to give it. If asked what he thinks about the evidence he could simply just say "I have no opinion". But instead he speaks as to character, literally a character reference.

    Did he read the entire service record, word for word, in that court? Because if he didn't then he selected which adjectives to report. And he selected some very glowing ones indeed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Field east


    I was of the opinion that a persons past record has nothing to do with the case in hand . Such evidence is not advisable. For example if a person is up for theft the prosecution is not allowed to bring up the person’s past record re previous thefts committed. So how come here that the Co was able to report that Crotty had a 100% exemplery record. What would he have said that Croty had a violent temper when he first arrived but through an anger management course he now has it fully under control?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,745 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    It's can't be mentioned until they've been found guilty, he had already entered his guilty plea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    This may have been said already but the public is free to write to the DPP to express their dissatisfaction with a sentence and ask for them to appeal it. They have to consider the letter and if there is a large volume of letters they may appeal in a case where they were not previously planning too.
    This happened when a Dublin 1 man who beat his dog to a bloody pulp and ultimately to death in a public park in broad daylight in front of many people did not receive a custodial sentence and was not prevented from ever owning an animal again. A lot of people wrote to appeal the leniency of the sentence.
    It has to be an old fashioned letter though. They won’t consider email etc.

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,964 ✭✭✭kirving


    To be fair, the reports suggest that he was asked to give his opinion, on top of citing official performance records, and I think the two are being conflated here.

    But there is another issue here. The Defence Forces just cannot stand up in court and say "well, he had a terrible record, was disobedient, had a temper, liable to fly off the handle, a danger to society, but we did nothing about it", even if it was true.

    They have no option in serious cases such as this, but to say that such violence was totally unforeseen by them, because if it was forseen by them - why didn't they act sooner?

    As for the judge - perhaps he felt that the Defence Forces was once of the few places that could deal with him, and perhaps make a change for the better, and that it's better for society as a whole for him to be employed somewhere, rather than unemployed.

    And as someone who was randomly attacked myself on the street, and still have physical scars from it, none of the above is good enough for the victim, I totally understand that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,745 ✭✭✭✭Witcher




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭tohaltuwi


    Yeah, didn’t think so, but I was concerned there might be a way of weaseling out with record of honour intact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,263 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    this is the country we live in now.

    A military professional, a male who is trained in physical combat, can target a young girl, beat her until she is unconscious….

    and subsequently, avoid a jail term.

    Yet again, the judiciary and criminal justice system are there for the criminals, all ‘awhhhhhhh’ and sympathy for them, but again and again and again throw their innocent victims and the rest of us head first under the bus…. Ireland, It’s pretty much a dive of a place nowadays… more proof…



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭jackboy


    This kind of thing happens all the time, it's just that it usually doesn't get the same attention. This incident has got a lot of attention just like the Kyle Hayes incident. They are not the norm though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 55,451 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Yes, but I’d class this assault far more insidious. Male, defence forces, trained, female, far smaller and lighter, far less able to defend… on social media boasting about it after… completely random with no provocation.

    male on male violence in random situations far more prevalent than the Crotty incident.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,428 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    I think their options here are very much open for clarification.

    The DF might want an officer present when a soldier is in trouble, but what is the legal requirement for them to be there? Would the trial have halted if the officer wasn't there? Is it in Irish statute that an officer has to present the service record when a soldier is being prosecuted?

    Because if the officer is only there at the request of the defense, then they had plenty of options. They don't have to lie, they don't have say any defamatory, they could just say the bare minimum of fact and leave anything opinion based or subjective out of it.

    And the judge feeling that the army is the best place for the defendant is the most farcical part if the DF immediately move to dismiss the soldier after the trial concludes.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,841 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    He might not be fired, but his colleagues are unlikely to have the welcome mat out....



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