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Soldier beats a woman unconscious, gets a great reference from his commanding officer, avoids jail.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    Read above - if it is a hearing to decide the appropriate sentencing, then why is the State - who have proved their case - not allowed to bring witnesses to discuss his character ? Why only positive witnesses ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,508 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Ok so perhaps it wasn't an actual lie (which makes sense as otherwise they'd presumably be guilty of perjury) but IMO that doesn't say anything good about their character either. A refusal to testify about someone who beat a woman in an unprovoked attack is, in itself, very telling.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,495 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Do we really have to repeat everything that was posted here yesterday?

    The "He had to answer questions" bit is just completely full of holes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Notmything


    He didn't, he was called as a witness as to the conduct of Crotty in the df. The prosecution also got to question him.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,325 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yes the state prosecutor could have asked him that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,640 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Jesus christ, the majority of the thread has been taken up with this back and forth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Notmything


    Deleted



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,508 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    He expressed an opinion that beating up a woman in an unprovoked attack after an evening out drinking was "out of character". How could Togher's experience of Crotty from being his superior officer possibly provide him with that level of insight into Crotty's character? That was speculation - and should have been taken as nothing more than evidence of how poor Togher's judgment of character actually was. Instead it was taken on faith by the judge. Very strange.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Notmything


    Unless the officer is friends with him outside of work anything he says is only subjective.

    I could give glowing work references to those I work with but couldn't tell you anything about their demeanor out of work.

    He can only give factual answers based on what he knows.

    You can be sure the officer was well aware of what was coming down the road for Crotty post conviction, and there's nothing to suggest he's going to try keep Crotty in the army.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,107 ✭✭✭amacca


    Indeed....I think any reasonable person would in fact think it was excessively lenient…

    That is if you compare it to what a reasonable person would think the consequences of such an act should be

    Now if you compare it to other sentences handed down in this country for similar acts then maybe it isn't excessively lenient

    There's the problem imo



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭yerwanthere123


    Of all the farcical sentences handed out by our courts recently, I haven't quite seen a reaction across social media like this one. Hopefully this goes back before the courts and Crotty ends up in jail. Defies belief that he's not there in the first place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I was staggered to read that.

    It seems the DPP was OK with a suspended sentence. What sentence did Counsel for the DPP expect beforehand?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭Field east


    Crotty is VERY, VERY LUCKY that he was not up for murder and he would have to 100% admit guilt because it is there in front of him on the CCTV IF EVEN ONE OF THOSE KICKS/PUNCHES LANDED ON THE JOUGLAR OR A PARTICULAR PARTOF THE BRAIN. He is a very lucky man



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Of course, but that's not how they see it. As his Dad explained to us, if the media hadn't picked up on this, his son would have walked away with hardly a scratch on him.

    A criminal record is a great barrier to anyone's future unless they fancy a lucrative career in one of our notorious worldwide import/distribution organisations in which case it would be a badge of honour. Why do you think he boasted on social media about this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,640 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    He received 3 years of a possible 5, albeit suspended. The DPP know the chance of a sentence being increased by two more years is slim enough and the chance of him being imprisoned off the back of it is smaller again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,996 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Crotty's father is an enabler and stupid into the bargain. Yes it's all the media fault, not his son's fault or the judges for turning it into a national story . No wonder the son is the way he is with a parent who won't put the blame where it lies. A good parent would recognise their child messed up and hold them to account.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    That’s fair enough so. I dint k iknow enough - or indeed anything - about army discipline but can he still be court martialed? Do we have military jails ??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    any type decent parent would be disgusted snd horrified at what their child had done here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭doyle55


    Can you imagine the army posting that thug abroad and he doing that to an Indigenous female in a war-torn country?

    He would undo years of Ireland's reputation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,396 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    The "mans" obviously a coward and a fool , unsuitable to be allowed among the general public and for public service especially armed service

    jail him for his crime and exclude him from service as unsuitable ,

    the publicity is a good thing it exposes further the disgustingly poor service that judges give the people in this country



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,307 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    I feel (hope) like this will be a watershed moment for sentencing of guilty verdicts for unprovoked attacks.

    The amount of suspended or light touch sentencing for these vicious attacks sickens me to the core.

    And while this incident is absolutely abhorrent as it was against a defenceless woman, too many young men have also been left dead or maimed for life after these unprovoked or one punch coward attacks.

    Google Annie Mulvaney and Advic to see how long campaigns have been going on to help and highlight victim's rights.

    I know of several incidents in my own county or neighbouring counties where young men have been left dead or maimed and their perpetrators received the most lenient of sentences that in no way reflects the seriousness of the crime they carried out.

    This young lady, Natasha O' Brien I feel will be a huge catalyst in turning the tide against the so called justice system in Ireland. People are really outraged for her and her story is gaining momentum.

    I'm sure the last thing this lady ever wanted in life was to be the face of (hopefully) a watershed moment but I would like to commend her courage and bravery for speaking out so eloquently and allowing this debate to snowball.

    Best of luck to Natasha in her healing and recovery.

    To thine own self be true



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Not a chance. This incident will be forgotten about quick enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 924 ✭✭✭thegame983


    The DPP would know, better then anybody, that a guilty plea to assault would most likely not result in a prison sentence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,460 ✭✭✭Tork


    He also raised a son who thinks knocking a woman out is something to be proud of. I don't know anything about this family but I'm getting the picture.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    I'm guessing the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
    Not saying the father did anything like the son did, but he was very defensive in that clip. Suggests, imo, that he didn't really see anything wrong with what happened.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Notmything


    No. In general he cannot be tried twice for the same event. In general military courts only deal with issues that happen while on duty or in a barracks.

    There is/was a military prison in the Curragh but not sure if it's still in use. It would be rare enough that it would have been occupied.

    During my time I know of just two people who spent time in it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,946 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    A very good turnout in Limerick for the protest and subsequent march. I see RTE are reporting it as @ 500. Perhaps during the early part, but by the time Natasha spoke I'd have but the crowd at closer to 1000.

    The crowd seemed to grow more as the march stretched from Sarsfield St to Glentworth st as they proceeded down Henry St.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭Field east


    This defensive thing is engrained into our culture. If anyone wants to check it out eg just go to a parent -even the mother- and complain/report that her son is constantly ‘picking’ at her son , shoving him for no reason, taking his rubber, etc, etc, etc, etc and see what the reaction will be. It will start off like ‘How dare you——————‘



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,549 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    Unfortunately, nothing will change until they increase the prison capacity. There's nowhere to send these scum.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,307 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    I tell my own son that all the time which is unfortunate because we should be able to try and help someone being set on.

    To thine own self be true



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Is this actually victim blaming. How can you say that?

    Fair play to her if it is what happened. More people need to stand up to it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭etuzyuk


    Fair play to the victim here. Horrific what happened to her and disgusting the justice she received from the courts. This scum battered her while she was lying prone on the ground, but she's not lying down anymore!!! Great to see her up in front of the crowds, full of energy and purpose, and determined to get her justice.

    What an absolute nonsense this "character reference" shite in the court case is or taking into account someone "acting out of character". This is not some petty theft. In very serious crime there should be NO mitigating circumstances. The bar for sentencing should be after fast guilty plea, full co-operation and remorse as a minimum expectation. Failing that, everything afterwards should be aggravating factors. F**K em!

    Just on acting out of character, serial killers act out of character. That is until they murder their first victim.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52,404 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,307 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    To thine own self be true



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,549 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    Agreed, helicopter in the occasional food and water parcel and let the scum enact Lord of the Flies.

    Feck their rights.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭extra-ordinary_


    In fairness…she was a woman possibly trying to diffuse a situation. How was she to know she was dealing with a complete psychopath who gets a kick out of hitting women. Like, who'd have seen that coming, or am I getting old?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,307 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    Unfortunately there are too many scumbags/drunk/coked up vermin that you simply can't take the chance of intervention anymore.

    To thine own self be true



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,418 ✭✭✭mountain




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 163 ✭✭jeremyr62


    If we all turn a blind eye then we are letting them win. If more people had been prepared to get involved when he was hitting her, the consequences for her may have been far less severe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16 foolhardy




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,107 ✭✭✭amacca


    I don't know if it's victim blaming or not.....I don't think anyone would think that girl was at fault in any way for what happened....the blame lies squarely with the attacker.

    It's just a sad reality that on balance you personally can be a lot better off not intervening or keeping your head down in most situations...I've lost track of the amount of incidents I've heard about where a well meaning person intervened at the wrong moment and in some cases had both parties turn on them...I'm old at this stage but I remember my parents warning me to keep the head down and not get involved when I was going out etc....I remember a member of a certain community deliberately spitting in my face (I was about 14) to try and get a rise out of me and then in all likelihood beat the **** out of me along with his friend...I was initially so shocked I kept walking in a trance the other way for about a minute before getting so angry I it felt like I was ready to run through a brick wall to get him/them......but by the time that happened they were nowhere to be seen....on reflection I was a lucky boy....they'd probably have beaten the **** out of me or worse I could be one of those stories about the lad thatgot a whack in the wrong part of the head....

    Its sad an another potential reason thugs and delinquent teens are emboldened....they tend not to get immediate feedback from people in their surroundings to the degree they might have in the past...you the responsible adult in the room has the most to lose and little or no incentive to act...

    Anyway, I don't know but I don't think it's victim blaming, it's just a reality ...the smart move is nearly always not to get involved if at all possible



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,107 ✭✭✭amacca


    @extra-ordinary_

    Yep, you could be getting old...standards are definitely lower among the scumbags now than they used to be when I was younger anyway...

    And they had gone down when I was a kid from my parents time....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,710 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Even the way you nonchalantly describe what happened to her is a bit sickening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,950 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Probably not. I don’t think criminals are sent there anymore.

    Best place for him would be prison, for a few years, at least.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,937 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    This is an inexplicable case and it's no wonder wonder people are angry because it also reminds everyone how out of touch the judiciary is in this country. Mind-boggling "sentences" week after week.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,499 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    Thankfully someone intervened here. Otherwise Natasha could be dead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Caquas


    So the DPP knew better than anybody that Crotty would most likely get a suspended sentence.

    Do you mean that the DPP won't appeal the leniency of the sentence?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Do you think the DPP should not appeal the sentence?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,508 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    But if the other passer by had not intervened either, she would likely be dead. So lucky he didn't live by your rules too.

    What you're saying is let the scumbag beat up the gay lad, and if he then turns on someone else who (he says) looked at him wrong while le was doing it, above all, let nobody intervene there either.

    Because that's what will happen - everybody keeping their head down just means the scumbags can beat people up for nothing and nobody ever intervenes.

    What sort of society is that?

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭lmao10


    I'd take the opposite view. Look at the lad who stepped in and stopped the beating. If it was my sister/mother/daughter, I'd always want someone to step up and in return I do the same. That's how my mind works anyway.



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