Anyone else feel ashamed of getting the Covid shots?

»When the reality is it is somewhere in the low hundreds.

According to you and your methodology, only several hundred people died as a result Covid in Ireland correct?

I presume you can support that (usual disclaimer: denial/incredulity is not support)

There were excess deaths from covid in other countries which did not have our level of restrictions. They demonstrate what would have happened here had we listened to the covid denialists.

All you are doing is proving the threat covid represented and how Ireland took necessary steps against it.

Your points were explained to you quite clearly, that you choose not to understand them continually, is on you (ladder conspiracy, really? you've fallen far).

@Cluedo Monopoly don't get sucked in by posters like this "Just asking questions". They've been at it for years on a variety of topics.

(I'm just dipping in and out of this but it's amazing to see the same misinformation being peddled as a few years ago)

In the space of two posts you have gone from:

"those of us with keen eyes for data can pick apart the figure's I wonder if you can."

to

"since you are the one obsessed with data from all over the world."

Self discrediting isn't it, when your claims are challenged on the basis of data and evidence?

When you are the one presenting information it is touted as, "keen eyes for data".

When asked a challenging question it becomes "you are the one obsessed with data."

So which is it? Is looking for and at evidence showing a "keen eye" or does it show as being "obsessed"?

Doesn't take long for the "just asking questions" charade to fall by the wayside does it?

Take a look at your own posts and apply your own advice to them, I reject the loaded premises of your question, which betray only the double standards evident in your posts.

We have already seen on this thread how you tried to misrepresent information about Omicron from South Africa, and its impact in Ireland.

Due to Covid measures (mask wearing, distancing, etc) certain infectious diseases, e.g. the flu took a dive, meaning influenza deaths temporarily dropped in that period. Likewise other infectious respiratory diseases. On top of that respiratory diseases are key causes of heart attacks and strokes which are primary killers in Ireland. Then there were the infirm and very elderly who (unfortunately) were likely to die in that period, caught Covid first and succumbed to that.

Basically there were more deaths from Covid, less deaths from other causes (due in part to side effects and measures from the pandemic)

https://www.thejournal.ie/estimated-1100-excess-deaths-during-pandemic-years-but-fewer-in-2020-partly-due-to-restrictions-6397589-Jun2024/

"You are obsessed with data from all over the world."

Earlier on the thread you were quoting sources in South Africa about Omicron.

Isn't South Africa "all around the world"??? How can you expect posts to be taken in good faith with such lines in them?

"If I don't trust the Irish data I am not going simply trust the data from anywhere else and I sure as hell don't trust news reports from all over the world."

So why did you trust the data from South Africa? And it wasn't even the actual data, it was a single quote from a single source, that then for you overrode everything else, including proper data from South Africa.

You are just cherry picking the data that suits you, and that includes data from around the world.

It is clear you are presenting an entirely self-serving argument, adhering to no standards of consistency in data.

You set a standard for yourself that you can quote South African sources but when someone else quotes Hong Kong sources they are 'obsessed' with data from 'all around the world'. South Africa isn't in Ireland is it, so it is all around the world too. How is that anything other than a demonstration of blatant double standards and hypocrisy in your posts and language therein?

Any evidence another poster presents you will just apply the same self-serving standard, and dismiss as untrustworthy.

Here again, you cite claims of excess deaths, but no sources. Why do you trust these unknown sources, but not others?

The case you present is utterly unconvincing, and contradictory.

I'll come back to the point, you misrepresented the data from South Africa about Omicron. You took one word out of context, ignoring all the other data and caveats and tried to spin an entire line of argument \ attack on the Irish response out of it. I expect the same tactics repeated again and again, when you write yourself a blank cheque of:

(1) Making claims without sources - because if you provided the sources we could drill in and see the caveats and may well find they actually don't support what you say.

(2) Dismissing any contrary sources as being based on untrustworthy data - even though it is likely in (1) you have cherry picked from the same sources yourself.

(3) With the added self-discrediting double standards of tagging other posters as 'obsessed' but you have a 'keen eye'.

If you had any kind of real solid argument or evidence you wouldn't need to resort to these tactics. It is mere posting bluster to conceal the fact that the canards you post here have been discredited time and time again, both on this forum and in the real world by the actions of every major health authority.

And given that you now state:

I am reluctant to believe the vaccines are causing that increase, I do think it has more to do with the severe impact of two years of lock down, which were exceptionally unhealthy for a myriad of reasons.

Given the title of the thread, that is a much broader debate I feel is off topic. Specific claims relating to the thread topic will continue to be challenged.

Two things.

Firstly, If there was little excess death because of a lack of deaths from the flu, then that would mean that Covid, in terms of seriousness, was in the envelope of a flu season? Something you would have been castigated for on here at the time.

Secondly, The article you posted is all over the place, there was 1,100 hundred excess deaths between 2020-2021, but none in 2020, so it was all in 2021, but the article also states that the rollout of vaccines would have reduced the rates of death in 2021.

This is the reason why I don't trust media.

The article also states the following -

“It is important to note that there is not one definitive approach to calculating excess mortality – mainly because, whilst observed deaths will ultimately be a matter of record (i.e. they are objective), the calculation of expected deaths is dependent on the choice of methodology (i.e., it relies on professional judgement),” the authors warned.

Then give us the observable death rate then, let us decide what is excess death. If you were to look at death rates in this country over the last ten years, the years 2020/2021 would barely stand out, the years since then you would see a spike. And what is expected deaths, nobody cares about that number, that is a projection. Excess deaths is the number you see over what the average deaths over a period of time, like 5 years or 10 years.

Can you see how that article isn't making any sense? And why do you think our Government told us in January there were no excess deaths in the very same period. Someone is telling us porkies.

So, It all depends then who you trust to inform you (which is not easy these days I will admit), I always think of that famous song, "Don't believe your lying eyes". We can see the death rate has increased over the last few years.

"Firstly, If there was little excess death because of a lack of deaths from the flu, then that would mean that Covid, in terms of seriousness, was in the envelope of a flu season? Something you would have been castigated for on here at the time."

Why would that mean that?

How does that claim make any sense given that the covid deaths occurred during a time of lockdown and restriction?

That is the effect of a heavily restricted covid versus flu.

Far far too quick to reach for the "someone must be telling us porkies" and that we shouldnt trust the data...

When your premise is built on a faulty basis.

I challenge this point on the basis of severity of flu versus covid as an input for peoples decisions wrt covid vaccination

OK

There was no excess deaths in 2020 (the article by the journal and the Government press release both agree on that, so we will focus on just 2020), the year we were in different states of lock down from severe (March - June, Oct-Dec) to mild (July/August).

There was no excess death because there was no flu (just like the poster said). So why was every news bulletin screaming out death numbers the whole way thru 2020 at us, frightening the s##t out of people?

Because the same/similar people that would have succumbed to the flu were succumbing to covid (plus a few hundred, as Covid was a bit nastier than your normal flu). Flu kills people every year too, flu on it's own kills a few dozen but takes out a lot of people with comorbidities, Covid killed a few hundred and more people with comorbidities, it also left a tail of long covid infections. But no where near the thousands we were told were dying.

So now you might think that it was lock downs keeping those numbers down but we were testing people all day every day and getting positives all day every day (obviously lower during the summer months)…we had a level 5 lock down from Jan 2021 to May 2021, when we went into the summer, where numbers would drop….then picked up again in Sept 2021, but at this stage 95% of us were vaccinated, and The Journal article tried to claim that 1,100 excess deaths were recorded in that year.

The article and the Government Press release are not consistent with one another, nor are they even consistent with reality.

2020 - No excess deaths (according to both) - Lock Downs kept the death rate down.

2021 - 1,100 excess deaths according to The Journal. - Despite Lock downs and Vaccines. No excess deaths according to the Government, same result as 2020.

Now, there is something very wrong with those numbers/that data.

There was excess death in 2020, but only a few hundred. I and many like me were castigated on here by many posters for pointing out that we were not seeing thousands of deaths like our media were telling us. And I mean castigated. But we were right, as amateur and all as we were, something wasn't adding up, and that has proven to be the case.

Nope. Nothing necessarily wrong with the data just once again faulty logic and cherry picking of data and misrepresentation.

The poster did not say "because of flu" alone - did they? They listed several factors. So paragraphs about flu rendered redundant because you cherry pick out one line and discredit therefore your own argument.

Covid in 2020 hit us in March. So it is not even two winter seasons v 2021.

Were restrictions in 2020 and 2021 identical?

Was covid identical?

Was behaviour of people wrt taking extra precautions versus covid.

Were population demographics? Were there just more deaths as we have an aging population?

Just some of the factors that any researcher would consider before resorting to conspiracy theories about something being 'wrong' with the data. And most likely answering them goes beyond the scope of this thread.

Paragraphs of dodgy maths completely discredited by failing to pass go.

I dont remember anyone being castigated for that. I do remember lots of people being rightly castigated for 'just asking questions' using loaded questions implying we didnt need vaccines or restrictions because so few people were dying... like asking did you need brakes on car given you hadnt crashed.

So most likely what doesnt add up is your version of events.

We dont need conspiracy theories, we dont even need to answer the questions above in the context of this thread.

Evidence has been posted on the thread showing lower all cause mortality for those vaccinated v unvaccinated. Thats all cause mortality not just covid so completely discredits the notion covid vaccines are detrimental to general health.

Evidence has been posted on the thread showing the significant reduction in hospitalization risk for covid for vaccinated v unvaccinated. So at an imdividual level the benefit is established.

There is therefore no reason for anyone to be ashamed of getting vaccinated and that statement is supported by documented evidence from multiple sources and jurisdictions. Nothing provided in your posts provides a credible counter to that and appear to relate to a separate topic and therefore are irrelevent.

In all honesty, how can you honestly accept that hospitals can discern between outcomes of vaccinated v unvaccinated and simultaneously accept that they can't discern between who catches covid in hospital and who is hospitalized because of covid?

I think there was a difference by the way but mainly in the older demographic. Because I do think they helped, but there was no need for fit and healthy young people to take them. Like I do believe we needed restictions but no where near as severe as we went, young fit and healthy people should have been allowed to live as normally as possible in that time.

And any conversations to the contrary should also consider the damage lock downs did to people and the economy, it is only fair.

But my point still stands, it seemed hospitals were only collecting certain data, and leaving out other important data.

Pro-vaccination posters point to after-lockdown effects as a cause of excess deaths - to take away from excess deaths being attributed to vaccines. But they also make it seem like excess deaths before the vaccine rollout in January 2021 were caused by covid-19.

In fact many excess deaths should not be attributed to covid - but to lockdowns.

See below story, about excess deaths in Wales and England caused by related effects of lockdown in June 2020:

I've an honours BSc. in Bio.

It barely qualifies me to read scientific papers. What about you?

Can anyone tell me if all effects of getting the vaccines are gone from peoples systems now at this stage? I’d imagine so unless someone can point me to scientific evidence.

On a side note I find it very hard listen to people that I know tell me the vaccines etc were not safe. When I’ve witnessed some of them snorting the white stuff off toilet cisterns after it’s been transported here by all means of methods. Hmm sure thanks for your concerns about my vaccine passport.