Russia-Ukraine War (Threadbanned in op)

Seems to have a been a very large satellite receiving complex of dishes and buildings.

there are/were an active air defence plus radar on the clifftop overhead that beach

A good few places got hit seemingly. The Space communications centre in Vityne, a military complex between Molochne and Uiutne, explosions then were heard from Zaozerne, Yevpatoriia and Donuzlav.

They were not targetting civilians. The target was a military base in Sevastopol, ru air defence intercepted and debris fell to the beach. Theres actual pictures of debris from ru ad missile on the beach. So you can actually say russians themselves attacked their own people.

Sure what could go wrong? Not much emphasis on Health and Safety in Ruzzia.

Cryptic

do a search of NATO and Ukraine going back to the 90's and naughties, there is no point "starting the clock in 2014"

i couldnt be arsed reading the article but this doesnt scream neutrality , they would have been better served treating NATO with a barge pole

"Fifteen years ago, on 9 July 1997, the Charter on a Distinctive Partnership between NATO and Ukraine was signed. It identified areas for consultation and cooperation, and established the NATO-Ukraine Commission to take work forward. Since then, dialogue and practical cooperation have become well-established in a wide range of areas"

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_89037.htm

Neutrality is just an excuse for Russia to invade. Countries join NATO because the alternative is Russian domination.

Look at Belarus for what Russia had lined up for Ukraine.

Look at how Russia 'respects' Moldovan 'neutrality' by refusing to respect agreements to remove forces from Transnistria.

We have seen even Finland and Sweden abandon the neutrality they maintained vis a vis USSR all through the Cold War, in recognition of this.

Anyone who thinks 'neutrality' would have preserved Ukrainian independence and sovereignty - or for that matter that of the Baltic States - clearly hasn't been paying attention.

of course it could have, if the US had the ability to conduct genuine diplomacy and not greedy oneup-mansship, Europe would be a different place. As it is the yanks seem to have played themselves and only strengthened China and Islam in the process plus weakening Europe, in my lifetime I have never seen the US so weak, its only a 50/50 they stay number one or go into a debt spiral

When people say Ukraine should have remained neutral, they actually mean Russia should be allowed to do whatever they want. That's why no smaller European country bordering Russia stayed neutral. It's not aggressive NATO expansion, it's countering Russian aggression.

Even within a single post your are position is all over the place… it is just an anti-US rant. The US is weak… also, the US is interfering in Europe. What does this nonsense mean? It appears you don't even know, these appear to be slogans you are merely repeating here sourced elsewhere. If the US was stronger or had less debt, what does that mean? They'd have threatened and attacked Russia? No explanation, you have none, that is obvious. These posts demonstrate you have zero concern for Ukraine, or Ukrainian citizens. You refuse to condemn Russian atrocities and war crimes. This entire war is just an excuse for you to post ill informed rants at the US.

The US did conduct genuine diplomacy. The US through NATO signed the NATO-Russia Founding Act, a formal treaty. The US and NATO have observed this treaty, and under this treaty Ukraine is permitted to join NATO. It is permitted to conduct an independent foreign and security policy.
This is also the formal basis under which admittance of countries such as Poland, Latvia etc to NATO was proceeded with.

Russia started interfering in Ukraine, in breach of the Budapest Agreement, when Ukraine - as it was fully entitled to in respect of all its agreements with Russia - was negotiating a treaty with the EU. The EU, not NATO. Whether neutral or not.

Russia could not tolerate an independent Ukraine out of its domination.

Still waiting on any real credible explanation as to how Ukraine, or for that matter the likes of the Baltic States, could have maintained independence from Russian domination outside NATO.

I am not usually active in posting here, but I find this poster the most bigoted consistent anti west anti US and pro Russian views of "Russia is great". You always fail to substantiate your claims / belief. I have watched this country turn everything on its head from the Chechnya war to the Georgian invasion. They have the ability to spin what they are doing on every occasion to say the target country is doing it.

A lot have escaped to Georgia and some have come to Ireland. I cant help feel that amongst the genuine people not wanting to be sent to fight for Putins ego there are some FSB agents planted for a long term plan to continue destabilising democracy

As a bit of an aside to the discussion here in realtion to certain contibutors, I find myself thinking forward a bit to the future.

I try to approach life as an optimist when I can, and I like to believe that eventually the Russians will be defeated militarily and Ukraine will get to some Status Quo Ante Bellim (or as close to normal as they can get with bombed out cities and mined fields). I like to think it is a matter of when, and not if this will happen.

With that (sort-of) optimistic future in mind, I wonder about our cenrtist friends here and their future outlook on life. They remind me an awful lot of the phenomon of "Useful Idiots" that were often allinged to the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

These contibutors are very much like that previous generation of ill-informed supporters. I guess I don't include the obvious Russian assets in this group, but we do have a least some cohort of people in Ireland who for various different reasons are blind to the morally bankrupt position of the Russian Federation or its dictator. I wonder…how would they adapt to a world where their chosen heroes have been fully exposed and broken?

Based on experience I see three possible outcomes:

• They'll change their tune once Russian defeat is on the horizon and act as if they never supported the Kremlin. Being as morally bankrupt as they are, I suspect some of them have very little courage in their convictions and will bend with the wind.
• They'll double-down ala Trump's "Big Lie" and simply pretend that reality doesn't apply. Arguing the defeat is victory and death is just alternative living
• Or they will simply go silent until the next authoriatian band-wagon catches their fancy.

The final option that I don't list is for a Useful Idiot to gain self-awareness of the horrable things they are supporting and then cease out of shame. I don't count it because people who have reached that stage have somehow regained a piece of their humanity. By then, they are no longer Useful Idiots and there is hope for them.

When we look back at this time in history…hopefully from a future at peace with democracy intact…it will be interesting to reflect on these people and on why they existed.

Ukraine was neutral. Despite that, the dictatorship next door kept meddling in it's politics, poisoning it's politicians, threatening it relentlessly. Culminating in annexing territory, starting a proxy war, then launching a full-scale invasion. Ukraine's neutrality is exactly the reason Putin seized his chance to invade it.

If Ukraine had been fast-tracked into NATO it's unlikely any of this would have happened.

Putin is the head of a very aggressive nation which has been conducting hybrid warfare on Europe for over a decade, despite our best appeasement and sycophantic efforts it has not curbed this aggression. His TV hosts talk of nothing but war, invasion and nuking European cities.

He just moved 80% of troops away from the Finnish-Russian border, you know why? He has no fear of any invasion. Nobody wants to invade nuclear armed Russia. It's a projection to validate his aggressive imperialist ambitions against Europe.

The "but the West must be to blame" tiresome yarn from the Kremlin and it's sympathisers has well and truly exhausted itself, which is why they've run out of ways to divert blame from Putin. We can all criticise Europe's slow or dragged response to this one-sided aggression, but it's Putin's invasion, which he can end at any time of his choosing.