DART+ (DART Expansion)

@goingnowhere

Building a branch of Metrolink to Donabate is a great idea, and the best thing about it is that once you do that you will no longer need a DART link to the airport, as now passengers on all DART services approaching Dublin Airport can get there with just one change.

When it comes to commuter rail, the airport is like catnip to some public commentators, so we keep hearing this proposal over and over, and no attention is given to the places where a new high capacity/medium frequency rail service would actually be useful.

If it was my set of crayons, I'd be looking more at a southward link from Consilla, serving Lucan, interchanging with the SW line, and eventually terminating at Saggart. The northern end of such a link could carry on toward Navan, with a branch serving Rathoath and Ashbourne. All very expensive, but all very useful to meet the growth in the Dublin area's population without inflicting more cars on the road network.

DART is best for longer journeys. Anything inside M50 should be left to Metro or Luas services. The only reason to build a new heavy rail lines (which would have to be underground) in the city would be to provide better interchange with those future services.

At Last !!!

CatInABox, that post should be a Sticky.

Thank you.

Dublin Airport does not need two rail links. I can't think of anywhere where both the commuter rail and metro serve the same airport. Metrolink will be more than is needed to cater for airport customers (although it will be of more benefit to airport staff, I think).

If a Metrolink extension or spur were to connect to the existing DART Coastal line north of the city, then there would be no need for any DART line to go near the airport. That would also be the cheapest option, as it would require no building work near Dublin Airport and no crossing of the M1. Plus, a northern Metro/DART interchange also benefits passengers coming from north of the City who aren't going to the airport at all.

We do need some new DART tracks to create a better network, but not at Dublin Airport.

There are many places that have both intercity rail and local metro or light rail services. The nearest example being Manchester Airport, which is smaller than Dublin in passenger numbers. If you want examples where there are underground metros and heavy rail you can take your pick, Copenhagen might be a good example, again smaller passenger numbers than Dublin. Vienna of course, also smaller, Berlin Brandenburg. It's really a long list of Airports smaller than Dublin boasting metro and intercity rail.

Dublin is currently the 9th busiest airport in the EU and the removal of a passenger cap would likely result in Dublin overtaking Lisbon, Munich and possibly Rome for 6th place in very short order. There is no overkill when it comes to PT investment in Dublin/Ireland we basically need it all yesterday.

For any level of capacity you choose...

Metro/Underground/U-Bahn = fewer people per train, more trains per hour.

DART/Commuter rail/RER/Overground/S-Bahn = more people per train, fewer trains per hour.

This is still true in cities that use the same gauge, and have manually-driven vehicles for both types of service.

Sam, with all due respect, you really need to educate yourself a bit.

DART is not capable of being driverless, nor is it going to be. It isn’t segregated for one, and it shares tracks with Intercity and other trains for another.

We are light years away from that kind of technology on heavy rail, and any new signalling planned has nothing to do with driverless trains.

You’re going off on wild tangents here.

This is outdated I believe. I assume the numbers are "trains per direction per hour (tpdph)"? A few points to understand:

1) The Kildare line, using the PPT, has to use the Drumcondra section - from there it can go to Docklands (Spencer Dock) or Connolly.

2) The Maynooth line can switch to either the Drumcondra section or the Royal Canal section at Cross Guns junction. If it switches to the Royal Canal section, it has to terminate at Docklands.

3) The DART+ West proposals only include a single alignment connection between Spencer Dock station and the Northern line, which limits services on that alignment.

Based on the above points, that table is suggesting 25 trains (per direction per hour) use the Drumcondra section. That would create a huge amount of conflicts, both at North Strand junction and Cross Guns junction. Adding services from the Northern Line into Spencer Dock also adds more conflicts.

The least disruptive service would be Maynooth (Dart West) into Spencer Dock as it would use the Royal Canal section and create very little conflict. Kildare line services (Dart SW) could also terminate at Spencer Dock and avoid conflict with the Northern Line.

To be pedentic, your comments about the route for the Kildare and Maynooth Lines should be prefaced with the comment "With the current junction configuration".

Given the budget for these two DART+ routes, the junction could be reconfigured (if required) to allow either line to take either route.

The current works programme does not include any change to movements at this junction. Here’s what’s in the Railway Order application:

(Blue lines are elecrification only, red lines are realignment and electrification - in his case it means lowering the track-bed to get under the road bridges at the east of this section, rather than actually changing their route)

However, demolition of all structures in the green area marked above is included in the proposed plans, and doing that would allow changes to be made to this junction in future without needing to go through a whole Railway Order.

What you are going on and on about is a total non-issue, frankly.

Gauge also affects turning radius: wider track means more space is needed to make a turn. If Metro used 1600 mm, it would have been much harder to route it. If Luas used that gauge, it would have been impossible to run out on street without major widening of street junctions.

Yeah agreed the layout could be changed, however it's not included in the plans for whatever reason / poor planning. Even to reduce disruption during construction, it would be extremely useful if the Maynooth and PPT lines can use either Royal Canal or Drumcondra sections.

Assuming they stick with those plans (and even if they don't), the service patterns outlined above are not realistic, as the level of conflicts would be very substantial. 23 tpdph using the Drumcondra section is one train every 2.4minutes....

There is simply no way to allow an increased amount of Maynooth/Kildare trains into Connolly without having a negative impact on the Northern line Darts. I'm certain that the main service patterns will see the majority of Maynooth and Hazelhatch Darts terminate in Spencer Dock, which will be fine once MetroLink is running.

Not if you want to travel to Malahide, Howth, Drogheda, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire or Bray.

The lack of interchange at Connolly is a major minus factor.

Coolmine - Glasnevin - Tara - Howth Junction is a lot of connections.

Coolmine - Connolly North - Howth Junction would be a lot better.

A connection with the DART Northern line is a missing piece of the jigsaw.