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German court jails woman for insulting convicted rapist.

  • 30-06-2024 12:57am
    #1
    political analyst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/28/german-woman-given-harsher-sentence-than-rapist-for-calling/

    In Hamburg, 20-year-old Maja R was found guilty of defamation because she called a young male who was one of a gang of nine that raped at 15-year-old girl in a park in that city in 2020 a "disgraceful rapist pig" and a "disgusting freak". She made those comments in a direct message to him via Whatsapp after his name and number were leaked on Snapchat. She also told him he "couldn't go anywhere without getting kicked in the face" and said "Let's hope you are just locked away."

    Due to his age, he only got a suspended sentence. Maja R was jailed for a weekend for her comments because of her previous conviction for theft and her failure to attend the court hearing for the case. Only 1 member of the gang was jailed. The case has laid bare Germany's harsh defamation laws, which criminalise causing offence with even mild slurs like "idiot" and can lead to up to 2 years in prison.

    Just for context, here's an interview with the judge who presided over the rape trial. The interview was published in Der Spiegel on 22 March 2024 and can be read on the following Reddit page.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/1dnnv0g/about_that_migrant_gang_rape_in_hamburg/?rdt=55803

    Here's a summary of what Judge Anne Maier-Goering said in the interview (and a disclaimer on my part: The following points are the judge's, not mine):

    According to the German understanding of punishment, the primary goal of legal consequences are not retribution, but above all that the accused does not commit any new crimes. This is especially true in juvenile criminal law. 

    The proceedings were not in public. The court's explanatory statement of the verdict was primarily addressed to those involved in the proceedings, the defendants, the defense attorneys, the joint plaintiff and the public prosecutor. Therefore, only those involved in the proceedings know the whole truth. That is a good thing, because it protects the plaintiff (the victim) in particular, who remembers almost nothing from the night of the crime. She should not be retraumatized by new information that becomes public. In the short public verdict announcement, I therefore left out many details - as in this interview - that also concerned the plaintiff's behavior and that were very crucial for the determination of legal consequences. 

    The incident did not involve physical violence. The victim willingly went with the defendants. But they took advantage of her severely mentally and physically impaired state - behaviour that would not have been punishable in Germany until November 2016, and everyone would have been acquitted. That is why what was reported in the "Bild" newspaper is so irresponsible and inflammatory: "Nine barbarians attack a young girl. With their orgy of violence, the rapists destroy a child's soul." That is deliberate spreading of fake news. It crosses a line and turns the general public against the justice system.

    Why is it that such harsh laws on defamation are still in place in Germany? One would've assumed that the German authorities would have learned from the obvious horrors of the past 100 years of their country's history.



«1

Comments

  • #2
    Francie Barrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,813 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058357788/german-court-jails-woman-for-insulting-convicted-rapist

    Four of the juvenile sentences imposed were suspended on probation with comprehensive sanctions and instructions for educational support.

    Marxist ideology is wonderful.

    They really think that they can just "teach" rapists not to rape other people.



  • #3
    Strumms
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,947 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    so a convicted rapist of an underage girl is enabled to become a victim by a headbanger judge who convicted another person who used fair and accurate language to describe the rapist..….

    What…a…time…to…be…alive 🥱



  • #4
    susan678
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 137 ✭✭susan678


    So if I was in Germany I could go to jail for saying this judge is a waste and a total wnaker.



  • #5
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,371 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320053#Comment_122320053

    ‘Marxist ideology’? The workers owning the means of production? What does that have to do with defamation? I’m beginning to think you may not fully understand the terms you use Francie…



  • #6
    Rustyman101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭Rustyman101


    Absolutely scandalous decision, hurty words get more punishment than physical actions.

    We are collectively ****** as a society if this becomes the norm.

    I'd imagine Helen & ROG would be in favour of this logic.

    How did we end up on this road, some of the scenario's of the last 2 years have been like something out of a dystopian fiction novel.

    Would love to know the plan and more specifically the out come........



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  • #7
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,073 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320053#Comment_122320053
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320147#Comment_122320147

    what the livin fcuk!

    id love to know what this has to do with Marxism, seriously i would, since ive no idea what the craic is with marxism?

    …looking forward to your explanation?



  • #8
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,814 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    I remember in the early 90's wishing I'd lived in Germany , they seemed streets ahead of Ireland or the UK at the time and erm my family have 2nd German passports, now I'd veto any permanent move there, its going to the dogs at a rapid pace.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #9
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,073 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320237#Comment_122320237

    family living in berlin, tis all good, far superior public transport etc….



  • #10
    Jequ0n
    Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    Harsh, but I suspect that her words had been interpreted in a racist context (which would be even more worrying).

    The rape case had been a right mess and the suspended sentences were large due to lack of concrete evidence. It was not helped by the fact that the victim had been extremely drunk either. It’s actually a very interesting case if you read up on it in detail.



  • #11
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,814 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320263#Comment_122320263

    true in the sense that Germany has nice pockets, Berlin , Munich, if you like the quiet life there are lots of idyllic small towns in the south, however looking to the future if you lived there you would certainly have to switch off the news and avoid an increasing number of places, make sure your kids or grandkids are raised in a nice middle class German area and not some "nulticulti" sh1t hole where you would fear for their safety , apart from that its grand.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • #12
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,073 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320281#Comment_122320281

    shur pockets of ireland are slowly becoming no go areas to, its always been so, the area where im from has always been a no go, but tis grand really



  • #13
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,814 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320288#Comment_122320288

    Direction-ally is the issue , I remember in the 90's, places like Essen looked ok , now I would draw a diameter of 1000km and say better not, stick to the safe and prosperous regions with the "good schools"

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #14
    InAtFullBack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 635 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320280#Comment_122320280

    It was not helped by the fact that the victim had been extremely drunk either.

    Amazing how this level of victim blaming/shaming passes with absolute ease when the perpetrators of the crime are not natives.



  • #15
    Jequ0n
    Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320320#Comment_122320320

    Where did I blame the victim? Reports mention her high blood alcohol level which is why the case was so dependent on witnesses and other evidence.



  • #16
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,486 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Failure to appear in court leads to weekend in jail. (Para 2 of OP). News at 11.



  • #17
    Francie Barrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,813 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320147#Comment_122320147

    Marxists view crime as a product of capitalist inequalities and see the criminal justice system as a tool of social control protecting capitalist interests. They advocate for rehabilitation through education and social reform rather than punishment.

    No normal person would ever suggest "education support" as punishment for rape of a 15 year old, only a Marxist.



  • #18
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,640 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320053#Comment_122320053

    why the other people qualifier

    They really think that they can just "teach" rapists not to rape other people

    Surprised you are in here given the track record of you know who in this arena.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #19
    Francie Barrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,813 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320417#Comment_122320417

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make here.



  • #20
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,821 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320310#Comment_122320310

    I spent a year in Essen recently, place was fine. There were a few areas on the northern side of the city that didn't seem great alright, but I always felt far safer than in the rough part of any Irish city.



  • #21
    Mick ah
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Mick ah


    Gentlemen,

    Germany has extremely harsh defamation laws. Everyone here knows this. You can't say someone is "X", however you can describe their behaviour as "X".

    The problem I see with the German justice system is that it was designed for Germans. Who are orderly, generally work for the public good and who create a high trust environment for each other. (Obviously there are exceptions, but in smaller cities, towns and villages you wouldn't believe how safe it feels, even some of the bigger cities are grand).

    The problem is, the system quite simply cannot deal with people from other cultures and most crimes are committed by non Germans or "Germans" with a "migration background". This is well known in the country, but you were a "nazi" for stating this up until maybe 10 years ago.



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  • #22
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,445 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320263#Comment_122320263

    In many ways Germany is still stuck in the 90s



  • #23
    gym_imposter
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭gym_imposter


    I really like Germans but some aspects of the country are odd indeed



  • #24
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,445 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320176#Comment_122320176

    Who brought them in?

    Who makes excuses for them, it's never their culture. It's the patriarchy, colonialism, capitalist dehumanisation m, Zionist oppression etc etc.

    Always someone else's fault.



  • #25
    InAtFullBack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 635 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320344#Comment_122320344

    It's my comment on the report itself, not necessarily directed at you personally.



  • #26
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Maja R was jailed for a weekend for her comments because of her previous conviction for theft and her failure to attend the court hearing for the case.

    Sorry, was she jailed for the comments? Or her previous conviction? Or not showing up to court?

    Seems like a click bait title.



  • #27
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    All were under 20 at the time, allowing them to be subject to juvenile law. Only one of them spent any time in jail, an Iranian national, who was 19 years old at the time, though it’s not clear why. Speaking about the rape in court, he asked: “What man doesn’t want that?” 

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320344#Comment_122320344

    seems that one of them made things pretty clear.



  • #28
    xyz13
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭xyz13


    The world is upside down.

    Bien faire et laisser dire...



  • #29
    Ezeoul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320724#Comment_122320724

    In this instance, I have to agree and this is what I'm wondering too.

    Maja R was jailed for a weekend for her comments because of her previous conviction for theft and her failure to attend the court hearing for the case. 

    So if she turned up, she most likely would have been convicted of defamation, but not jailed?

    Either way, the world has gone nuts when a convicted rapist only receives a suspended sentence.

    Post edited by Ezeoul on


  • #30
    Jequ0n
    Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320839#Comment_122320839

    Useful for the persecution that he was too stupid to know when to keep his mouth shut. They had dna evidence from him and some of the others anyway though.
    It’s concerning that he didn’t realise how at odds his view was with local law and customs.



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  • #31
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,489 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Huh, Leftie Laws.

    If I were her I would issue a statement of apology for insulting pigs. Pigs have feelings too you know.



  • #32
    Mick ah
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Mick ah


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321078#Comment_122321078

    But remember, you're a racist if you don't want people like him being allowed to live in the West



  • #33
    extra-ordinary_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭extra-ordinary_


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321150#Comment_122321150

    Yeh although only recently we had one of our own boasting about how they were able to punch a woman unconcious. Migrant strain was he?



  • #34
    Mick ah
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Mick ah


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321203#Comment_122321203

    If you're referring to that soldier who's sentence has caused controversy, I don't believe he has a migratory background. But I do believe (based on the limited information I bothered to learn) that he should be serving jail time.

    I also think that sentencing in Ireland is too lenient and a MASSIVE prison should be built.

    I also don't think we should willingly allow ourselves to become like Sweden, were over 70% of violent crimes are committed by non Swedes or "new" Swedes.

    I like our culture, I like Europe. I don't think there much value to be added to Europe by allowing people with whom we've got nothing on common with to come here (often illegally) and then live off of government handouts.



  • #35
    political analyst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭political analyst


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320724#Comment_122320724
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320905#Comment_122320905

    I stated what was stated in the Telegraph article, which was also printed in yesterday's Indo. It's like when a defendant in the district court in Ireland is jailed for shoplifting or some other summary offence because of previous convictions.



  • #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321078#Comment_122321078

    I was only reading this last week, it might be a bit of an eye opener as to the kind of questions the defence will ask in a rape trial. Thought you might like it.

    Throughout Defence’s line of questioning, it becomes clear that the strategy is to prove that Beast’s sole intention was to commit the burglary, not the aggravated sexual assault. Yeah, sure, he tripped and fell fingers-first into her. Defence asks me if the accused broke into my home with the intention of stealing from me. I wait for Prosecution to object. Nothing. Gotta do it myself, so.



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  • #37
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320404#Comment_122320404

    You have not got a clue! It is a civil law court not a common law court for heavens sake.



  • #38
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320098#Comment_122320098

    Germany has civil law not common law, judges do not interpret the law nor is the nature of the crime being commented on.



  • #39
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321150#Comment_122321150

    What people are like him?

    Are you sure about that? Or is it because people use crimes committed by a "foreigner" as a means to tar all foreigners



  • #40
    Montage of Feck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,727 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    I find it kind of a funny that posters are blaming Marxism and left wing politics for this when a portion of Germany was an actual Marxist country. I doubt the perp would have had it so soft in the GDR.

    🙈🙉🙊



  • #41
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,073 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321820#Comment_122321820

    …id love to see direct quotes from marxs work to back the claims!



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  • #42
    Mick ah
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Mick ah


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321786#Comment_122321786

    People who don't see gang rape as abhorrent.

    Say what you want about Western culture (and I have criticisms of it), but you'd be hard pressed to find people with a mainstream western upbringing who don't think gang raping a woman is wrong.

    Remember, what we think is normal certainly isn't thought of as normal in other parts of the world. There are millions of people in Pakistan, India and Afghanistan (and the middle East and North Africa) who believe that it's "honourable" and right to murder their sister/daughter if she's been raped. You know, because by being a victim of a disgusting crime she has dishonored the family.

    The UK also has problems with these so called "honour killings". No prizes for guessing where the perpetrators hail from.

    It's not about tarring all foreigners. Certainly not. But it's irrational to assume that foreigners are just westerners with different skin colours. People bring their culture with them, and some cultures are quite frankly disgusting.

    The only people we as a society should be accepting are people who we expect to contribute (people with needed skills and a work visa) and who will integrate.

    When was the last time you heard of a gang rape in Western Europe being carried out by a group of senior software engineers from the sub continent?

    Even the most hardcore Nazis that I've met don't tar all foreigners with the same brush.



  • #43
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 87,862 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    That really is bad, one only in prison for a gang rape and then calling rapist pig lands one in prison

    https://nypost.com/2024/06/29/world-news/german-woman-given-harsher-sentence-than-rapist-for-defamation/

    https://forumofgames.com/




  • #44
    Jequ0n
    Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321459#Comment_122321459

    This was quite interesting but not too surprising. Ultimately it’s the defense’s job to get their client off the hook which is why “the idiot” in the Hamburg case ruined several defense strategies with this one statement.



  • #45
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322028#Comment_122322028

    What "people" don't see gang rape as abhorrent?

    Do you meet alot of hardcore Nazis?



  • #46
    Jequ0n
    Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322028#Comment_122322028

    There are plenty of people in western society who fully endorse (gang) rape and other sexual activities which are criminal. The ones who value their reputation and freedom will not be caught in trials like this though.

    I agree that cultural differences of some subcultures within western societies are a huge problem though, and that they are at odds with local laws.



  • #47
    Mick ah
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Mick ah


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322853#Comment_122322853

    To quote the only one of the perpetrators to go to gaol: “What man doesn’t want that?”

    His statement was in relation to gang rape.

    Do you think he licked that sentiment off a stone? Do you believe that everyone who migrates to Europe shares our values?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4112443/pakistan-court-sentence-girl-to-be-raped/

    I've met Pakistanis who were great guys, but some people from Pakistan are still living in the dark ages.

    I don't meet many hardcore Nazis. Most people keep that to themselves. But I've come across some self described Nazis.



  • #48
    Mick ah
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Mick ah


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323156#Comment_122323156

    Do you have any examples of westerners endorsing gang rape?



  • #49
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323231#Comment_122323231

    So what "people"? You didn't actually answer the question .

    I don't believe every Irish person shares "our" values. Nevermind everyone. But I also don't hold groups of people responsible for the actions of individuals

    So have many have you met? Your sample size is 1?



  • #50
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,037 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320905#Comment_122320905

    Either way, the world has gone nuts when a convicted rapist only receives a suspended sentence.

    It's very very possible that the next President of the US will be someone who a judge has found culpable of rape.

    And probably 60M plus will know this as they go to vote for him.



  • #51
    Mick ah
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Mick ah


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323277#Comment_122323277

    You're not actually looking for answer are you?

    To start, some of those "people" include the lads who allegedly raped that 16 year old in the article I linked to.

    I also don't hold groups of people responsible for the actions of individuals. But if we're going to have a sane migration policy, and reduce the probability of this sort of crime being committed in Europe in the future we need to recognise that people from certain regions bring with them a world view that is quite simply incompatible with ours.

    To believe otherwise is pure fantasy.



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