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How useful is the battery warranty, really?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭jonnygee


    What I was saying was that it reminds me of when broadband was being advertised as unlimited but really wasnt unlimited.

    I was considering buying an ev. Not any more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    One manufacturer of a car model that's up to 14 years old at this stage is enough to change your mind? Maybe I should mention the Ford Focus econoboost or the Mazda skyactiv and put you off petrol and diesel cars respectively for good also?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Tesla no quibble warranty.

    Of all the case of this kind of failure, and there’s not been that many, the common denominator seems to be Nissan.

    I wonder was the car a taxi?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭jonnygee


    Mention whatever you like. I not taking a gamble on it anyway. Everyone else can do whatever they want.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    It's only a gamble if you buy out of ignorance. Good luck with that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭Comer1


    The liveline case was a Leaf owned from new since 2018.The lady is now an OAP and the car has only 30,000 km.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭Comer1


    Don't know what you mean? I don't think you can blame the liveline case on ignorance?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    That’s fine. It’s only a fuel choice. No need to get excited or upset about it.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Shame on Nissan unfortunately. They seem to be one of the only companies shafting customers like this.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭Comer1


    I think VW have the same warranty,degradation only covered.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    VW cover their HV batteries for all material or manufacturing defects for 8 years or 160k km.

    They don’t tray degradation as a defect u less it drops the SoH below 70%. That’s similar for all brands.

    Material or manufacturing defects would cover a dead cell bringing the whole battery pack down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,746 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    There was a recall some time ago for VW EVs with bad battery modules. The garage would remove the module and replace for free, although they explained the mechanics of it and it seemed a bit mad

    Basically they aren't allowed to store the modules onsite because of a fire risk, so they have to keep the car while the modules are on order and do the replacement as soon as they arrive

    I decided not to point out the gaping flaws in their logic, such as if the fire risk is so high then why are there EVs in the showroom.

    I also decided not to query if the diesel cars had their tanks drained before any maintenance work was done since they usually have a much higher fire risk

    Anyway, there is precedent for VW covering bad cells from the factory, but I'm not convinced it's covered under warranty. For example if you aren't in that recall and suspect you've a bad cell then you might face an uphill struggle

    I believe @Rusky rusky might have experience with a module swap from VW

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,746 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    The annoying part is that this should be very easy to spot as the manufacturer. They likely have all the battery history from initial testing all the way to customer handover

    In addition, it should be simple enough for the car to log the battery cell voltages. It's already monitoring them, writing to a log file which can be exported is simple enough

    So a manufacturer could very easily look up all the cells in a problem car and possibly see that one of the cells was right on the control limits during assembly and then the voltage rapidly dropped in the first few months indicating a bad cell

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭joe1303l


    It does seem very short sighted of Nissan to end up with such bad press. Seems awful silly not to sort these cars or even just buy them back from the two customers at a trade price to resolve. It’s also going to further weaken Leaf residuals in the trade.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭RainInSummer


    Had a cell or some kind of battery part fail in my Nissan Leaf 62kWh only a month into my ownership.

    Nissan had it for a month and paid for a Toyota RAV4 for me to run about in. Thought it was odd they didn't arrange another Leaf or other Nissan but hey.

    All sorted anyways. Seems rag order not to give that lady the same treatment as her battery is still in warranty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,855 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Especially when they've spent so much on the current sales campaign and dropped the price. All undone by this debacle..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭joe1303l


    Obviously the marketing and warranty departments don’t talk to each other.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    The problem with these 8, 10, 11 year battery warranties is that they've not been tested in real life. We haven't exactly got a fleet of EVs from 2013-2016 knocking about with these batteries to prove the promise.

    And therein lies a problem - the everyday experience of people with all manner of rechargeable batteries is that performance fades or fails.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,746 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    We're just going to ignore all the Leafs, Zoe's, Tesla's and other EVs that are older than their warranty

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Tell us so. What was the warranties on these when bought, how many years and have they met and surpassed them largely without issues. Or are we ignoring the Leafs, Zoe's, Tesla's and other EVs that have been scrapped as not worth keeping on the road?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Completely data free discussion here. And not likely to be resolved without any.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭jonnygee


    I think everyone understands that there is going to be battery degradation over the years and accepts that. That wouldnt be a problem that would affect a buying decision.

    The issue here is that if your battery goes faulty internally as happened to the Lady on the radio, then you suddenly discover that the warranty that you thought you had doesnt actually exist. I dont think that is acceptable and it should be stated upfront and not buried in the fine print that you wont be covered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,855 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You claimed they haven't been tested, which is obviously untrue. There's been EVs around since 2010 and it doesn't take much googling to find out about Tesla warranties or Renault battery leasing for example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,855 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If Nissan though they were struggling before this, it's going to far worse if they get a name for not fixing their cars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Not sure "My warranty doesn't include what I thought it did" is really something that somehow applies only to EVs and their batteries. We've been using lithium based batteries for decades and the methods of increasing longevity have been well known for at least half that time.

    I appreciate that faults are in a different category from degradation, but we're now at a point where these things can be repaired without going back to the manufacturer and quite a bit cheaper. There are at least three specialists in the country who can do this.

    The Nissan Leaf was the first mass market EV to be produced and unsurprisingly also the one with the most battery degradation problems. But there are always at least 100 of these on sale on DD with expired battery warranties. So it's not inevitable that the end of the warranty is the end of the car.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 466 ✭✭Cuauhtemoc


    "So it's not inevitable that the end of the warranty is the end of the car"

    Of course it may turn out that the end of the car comes before the end of the (implied) 8 year warranty in this case unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    That depends on whether the cost of the repair exceeds the value of the car. And as I said, there are now independent specialists replacing battery modules at much lower costs than manufacturers and dealers. There was a YT video posted here a while ago of one such independent replacing a battery module and it's not as big or complex a job as replacing an engine or gearbox. At least not to my mind. The only thing stopping me from doing it (and I'm no expert) would be the lack of a vehicle lift.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,855 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think it's be fighting my case with such low mileage.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,869 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    The story won’t be good for trying to increase EV sales right now that’s for sure.

    I’ve been the owner of many an ICE car that was 8 years and older - I reckon there’s a massive % of the population who own a car that’s 8 years or more in age.

    We know reduced milage due to battery degradation is a feature of EVs - that’s something most people will accept and with range rates increasing all the time, not too much to be worried about- but with these kind of stories, it will force down second hand prices even more, leading to high depreciation of new EVs , leading to even less people buying new EVs.

    There needs to be some form of national guarantee put in place on batteries over 8 years - if failure rates are as small as were led to believe then this should be a piece of cake to implement - but with reactions from car manufacturers like Nissan, I’m not at all convinced they’re as confident as they make themselves out to be



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Similar glass half full argument for ICE cars.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Can we get a national guarantee that my 2007 M5 will retain its full 507bhp indefinitely?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,869 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Didn’t know there was a government and car industry push on for people to purchase vintage high powered ICE BMWs but hey if there is, why not?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    We know reduced milage due to battery degradation is a feature of EVs - that’s something most people will accept

    Do we? What do you think the average degradation of batteries is after six years?

    …but with these kind of stories,

    These kind of stories about one model that is well known for having a particularly bad battery chemistry that pretty much baked in degradation which only increased with the amount of fast charging the car was exposed to, is really not indicative of modern EVs. Granted that it's not helping the case if people don't actually do any research beyond listening to Liveline.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,869 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    approx 13.8% but will increase as battery increases with age



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,855 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    For me thats not really valid comparison. You really want EV batteries to be made in a way they can be more easily repaired if faulty from a consumer right to repair point of view.

    I think in this case with the Leaf the manufacturer needs to be taken to task.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,869 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    My reply to that post you’ve quoted was sarcasm which was all it deserved - my view is simple- you are either supplying an 8 year guarantee on the battery or you’re not- if a car manufacture has too many get out clauses then it’s not worth the paper it’s written on and therefore we as consumers should see a greatly reduced price for EVs as if buying second hand it’s us that’s taking all the risk



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Based on what? Current models of EVs are showing very little battery degradation as understanding and development of battery chemistry increases as well as methods of charging. Charging to below 100% is now the norm with modern EVs which has seen negligible degradation of batteries when implemented. Low single figure percentages after three years is becoming the norm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,869 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    I meant the "will increase as battery increases with age" bit.

    Assuming you mean health of a battery is indirectly proportional to its age, that's not the case. The main factors affecting the health of an EV battery have been determined to be charging patterns and type (AC or DC) rather than age.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,869 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,855 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Theres a randomness to degradation. With a few outliers here and there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    The only actual data they could use was age since they didn't and couldn't get accurate charging pattern data. So it's a very blunt analysis from that point of view. If your two data inputs are age and state of health, that's going to be your only available comparison metric.

    And you'll note that they also refer to charging method, state of charge, charging cycles, etc. as other factors.

    So although it's useful data, it's not definitive since it only considers age as a factor in what they admit is a multi-factorial issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,869 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    And tell me this then - if the so called “experts” can’t agree on how a battery will age beyond 6 years and at what rate, where does that leave the secondhand car buyer- so much for them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭extra-ordinary_


    Lithium Ion batteries, for best life should go through as much as possible full charge and discharge cycles. Has this changed with new technologies or are people's charge pattern behaviour leading to increased degradation of the cells?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭jonnygee


    Somehow this thread keeps drifting back to degradation which is not what it's about. It's about what happens if my battery develops a fault during its 8 year battery warranty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Please. There's a difference between experts disagreeing and a data driven analysis where only one data point is used. The Geotab people actually agree that method of charging and type of charging as well as a number of other factors affect battery longevity. They just didn't measure them.

    They set out to measure how much degradation a number of different EVs showed after different lengths of time. They give a number of different reasons for the degradation. That's it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,869 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    And remind me what has all of this got to do with a car manufacturer not honouring a battery guarantee?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    The answer to that is likely to be found online in the various manufacturer's warranty documents or summaries. Here's what VW say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,179 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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