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Anyone else feel ashamed of getting the Covid shots?

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    #722
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122327772#Comment_122327772

    Various case definitions for vaccination failure are being used in different settings,

    Indeed. Gaslighting Joe Public that a vaccine is better than it is, for example.



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    #723
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,358 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122327788#Comment_122327788

    That's not what the article says though is it? This is another of your inventions.

    That's a quote from 2012. Clearly demonstrating there are nuances to vaccine effectiveness and failure, this pre-dates covid, is not due to any strategy to deceive - it is not as you tried to present.

    Pretty clear your line of argument here has run out of steam, after your cited article contradicted you and now have to resort to slogans like 'gaslighting'.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #724
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122327819#Comment_122327819

    No of course it is not what the article says. It says you can use different definitions depending on what you're try to claim, or which goalposts you might want to move, hence the need and proposal of wider accepted definitions. For example to avoid retrospectively claiming your vaccine is highly effective and successful when it is an abject failure.

    The primary endpoint of the covid vaccines, i.e the endpoint they were approved on, and the endpoint by which success or failure would be defined was the prevention of the disease, not the mitigation of the severity of the disease.

    It's there in black and white in all regulatory approvals issued worldwide. Anybody who claims otherwise is moving the goalposts.

    The same is true of the annual flu vaccines Schoog was referring to.

    If your recollection varies then so be it. We've been down this road before.

    It doesn't bother me as much as it used to now people are no longer salivating at thought of making medical decisions for everybody else.

    Getting back on topic, I can understand why people might be ashamed of getting the covid vaccines as the OP refers to. I equally understand why many people wouldnt have given it a second thought.

    What I cannot understand is why so many people who got a hard on for vaccination passports and restricting peoples freedoms are not more ashamed of themselves.



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    #725
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,358 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122327897#Comment_122327897

    Covid vaccines were approved on that basis, because they were the narrow bounds set in the trial.

    Where does it state that was the only data looked at by authorities, or the only data used to assess how 'terrific' the vaccines were? Their overall benefit? Where does it state they were not at all interested in mitigation of disease?

    The moving of goalposts is being done by you, trying to claim that just because that was the basis of the trials that was the be all and end all for vaccine effectiveness in all contexts and in totality.

    It doesn't come down to my recollection versus yours. Your claims are false, it is as simple as that. Semantic games, nothing more.

    This is from November 2020, before the vaccines were approved and severe disease is explicitly noted as one of the efficacy criteria.

    Only 11 people who received two doses of the vaccine developed COVID-19 symptoms after being infected with the pandemic coronavirus, versus 185 symptomatic cases in a placebo group. That is an efficacy of 94.1%, the company says, far above what many vaccine scientists were expecting just a few weeks ago. More impressive still, Moderna's candidate had 100% efficacy against severe disease. 

    https://www.science.org/content/article/absolutely-remarkable-no-one-who-got-modernas-vaccine-trial-developed-severe-covid-19#:~:text=More%20impressive%20still%2C%20Moderna's%20candidate,30%20in%20the%20placebo%20group.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #726
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,891 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122299619#Comment_122299619

    "And I don't believe we'd be told the truth if there were/are any issues with the Covid vaccine, because of the public-health impacts if there's increased hesitance about other vaccines."

    This is demonstrably false, refuted by the actions of health authorities in monitoring vaccine issues and adjusting what vaccines recommended eg AZ, Moderna for certain cohorts.

    The general public have been told there were changes. Explanation of the changes were cited as things like "commercial reasons". Even then I don't believe we'll get the full sotry.

    Also people in Ireland were not coerced into getting vaccinated. If you are implying they were coerced and information deliberately withheld from them, that is another anti vax dog whistle. There was more information available to be informed about covid vaccines than any other vaccines in history.

    I never said they were. But I'm aware that in some countries they were - and that there's a section of the public here who absolutely believe we should have adopted coercive approaches, and are blind to the wider negative effects of such approaches.

    Have you ever shared you DOB or address with a randomer to go to a pub or gym?

    No. I shared contact details to join the gym - but they were given to a nominated administration staff member who has GDPR obligations to store them safely and to use them for the purpose for which they were provided. Importantly, they aren't left on display to be see by every other person coming in to use the gym after me.

    So can you spell out what the concern is? Because again it just seems to be anti vax dog whistling without foundation.

    A society in which citizens have to share their government-issue photo identification to access basic services is on the road to totalitarianism. "Ladies and gentlemen, your papers please". This issue goes far wider than just medical preventatives / treatments.

    Do you agree with measles vaccinations?

    Yes. Provided it is optional, not enforced.

    That said, I'm sceptical of some of the claims that surround measles, eg 1-in-4 cases in hospitalised. I'm from pre-1969 generation where the only organised "play-dates" were when a kid got mumps or measles, and other kids in the neighbourhood were brought around to hang out with them to get the infection. There weren't that many hospitalisations.

    Do you agree with the regulations in various jurisdictions that mean unvaccinated children cannot attend public schools? Those regs are not just to incentivise uptake to protect the children themselves but also those they come into contact with.

    The only jurisdictions I know where that happens are the USA - and even there the rules vary from state to state, and every single state has at least one type of exemption.

    Do I agree? No, philosophically I don't agree with forced medical treatment except in extreme situations. Eg compelling a person who has active TB to isolate and take treatment is absolutely fine, compelling people who have been exposed to them to take preventative treatment, not so fine.

    Australia has rules about children declaring vaccination status, and can exclude them IF there's a disease outbreak. That's absolutely fine.

    Obviously you have a very high level of trust in state and medical authorities. When I was 30 years younger, I did too. Despite thalidomide. But then there was Vioxx, which I took a LOT of, with my GPs encouragement, even after he knew that it was being withdrawn, and why. So I'm a lot keener on the precautionary principle these days. And industrial-schools / direct-provision clearly show that the state cannot be trusted.

    Post edited by Mrs OBumble on


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    #727
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,358 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328046#Comment_122328046

    You were asked a simple question:

    Have you ever shared you DOB or address with a randomer to go to a pub or gym?

    No straight answer provided. Are you seriously telling us you never had to provide ID once before covid in order to access a service?

    A society in which citizens have to share their government-issue photo identification to access basic services is on the road to totalitarianism. 

    Well I guess that means we've been on the road to totalitarianism for a long time, seeing as you must be one of the very few people in the country who never had to show such identification in order to go to a pub.

    Do you remember when there was a public phone book of the names, addresses and phone numbers of most households in the country?

    Were we a totalitarian state then? Did you object and go round telling people not to put their names in it, because it was totalitarian?

    Nope, because the entire premise is ridiculous.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #728
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122327979#Comment_122327979

    I said the primary endpoint.

    Moderna applied for authorization for the vaccine to prevent the disease.

    They were granted authorization for the vaccine to prevent the disease.

    The definition of vaccine failure depends on the intended use - i.e to prevent the disease.

    Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration issued an emergency use authorization (EUA) for the second vaccine for the prevention of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).

    “With the availability of two vaccines now for the prevention of COVID-19, the FDA has taken another crucial step in the fight against this global pandemic that is causing vast numbers of hospitalizations and deaths in the United States each day,” said FDA Commissioner Stephen M. Hahn

    The FDA has determined that the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine has met the statutory criteria for issuance of an EUA. The totality of the available data provides clear evidence that the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine may be effective in preventing COVID-19.

    The vaccine was 94.1% effective in preventing COVID-19 disease among these clinical trial participants with 11 cases of COVID-19 in the vaccine group and 185 in the placebo group.

    This was late 2020. There is no doubt that the vaccines were approved to prevent Covid-19. In all of the official reglautory documents, nowhere to do they say it has been approved to mitigate the severity of the disease. At best it was referenced as a secondary benefit in the case of breakthrough infections - i.e vaccine failure.

    The goal posts have since been moved.

    And most people don't have an issue with them being moved. And that's fine, but let's not pretend anything otherwise.

    https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-takes-additional-action-fight-against-covid-19-issuing-emergency-use-authorization-second-covid



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    #729
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,358 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328141#Comment_122328141

    So the goalposts have moved alright. Over the course of the night you have now shifted to talking about 'primary endpoint'.

    "The definition of vaccine failure depends on the intended use - i.e to prevent the disease."

    No it doesn't. This is another of your inventions, and after the number of false claims that you have made tonight that have been discredited, your claims have no credibility.

    It is already discredited by the Moderna article I linked which stated:

    More impressive still, Moderna's candidate had 100% efficacy against severe disease. 

    Why would it state "more impressive" if prevention of severe covid was only a "secondary endpoint" and prevention of infection was the only standard of vaccine effectiveness, success or failure?

    The article is from November 2020, it is not some post rollout revisionism, your claims here are debunked.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #730
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,748 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122327442#Comment_122327442

    I would confidently say you didn't know a huge amount technically about vaccines pre COVID. Nothing wrong with that, most people didn't. That includes lots of very well read people. I suppose one thing the COVID 19 pandemic showed was that using layman's terms to make things clearer can be abused by bad faith actors. Regrettably it also showed using technical terms can be unintentionally or intentionally misrepresented by those who don't know precisely what they mean. I found the same in this very thread. Sometimes it's intentional, but sometimes it's not.



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    #731
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,905 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328241#Comment_122328241

    When Covid was new, we naturally thought vaccines might be able to prevent the disease with a dose, like Polio, Smallpox, etc. Experts speculated about this, some supporting the notion, some expressing doubts. Despite the high hopes, unfortunately we discovered that Covid mutated, like seasonal flu. As a result, whilst the vaccines were good at reducing hospitalizations and deaths, they weren't as good as some hoped at preventing transmission and "stopping" Covid dead in it's tracks (like Smallpox)

    The world moved on from this. Some individuals didn't. They are stuck in a hamster wheel of believing they were "promised" by some sort of universal power that vaccines would "stop" Covid. As a result they never let go of grinding this point through contrarianism.



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    #732
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328241#Comment_122328241

    Ad I said, recollections may vary.



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    #733
    Spiderman0081
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Spiderman0081


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122327353#Comment_122327353

    Makes sense then that anyone wanting to enter a premises would need to show a vaccine passport to prove that they had received a vaccine that was “90% effective based upon a static COVID virus” only that said COVID virus was not static. I really like this basic stuff.



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    #734
    Spiderman0081
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Spiderman0081


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328337#Comment_122328337

    One didn’t have to be an expert to make an educated guess that the Covid vaccine would be about as effective against covid as it actually turned out to be. There was already decades of evidence from dealing with seasonal flu. It’s nice to have “high hopes” though, it gets those hamsters to run on the wheel for you!



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    #735
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,610 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328141#Comment_122328141

    Should I link people over to the conspiracy theory forum where you scattered yourself on this topic?



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    #736
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328278#Comment_122328278

    Id say you didnt know much technically either. Nothing wrong with that. What everyone is arguing here seems to have a very common and surprisingly amicable endpoint. The Covid vaccines dont work very well with variants and at best reduce transmission and severe illness in vulnerable groups. Hence with 90% vaxxed we have a Covid wave with 434 admitted on Saturday.
    Indroduction of properly worn N95 single use masks might help.

    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/tess-finch-lees-were-drowning-in-a-wave-of-covid-but-hospitals-arent-even-insisting-on-masks/a504621681.html

    Of course the anti vaxxers who are not up to date on their shots are responsible too.



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    #737
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328628#Comment_122328628

    By all means, but let them know first you can't join in with them over there as you were banned after tying yourself in knots and lashing out.

    In any case it is unnecessary as it is no longer considered a conspiracy theory to point out the precise reason the covid vaccines were approved, and back that up with links to the official approval documents.

    For example, Comirnaty (Pfizer) in the EU, requested a very specific authorisation:

    The applicant applied for the following indication:
    “Active immunisation to prevent COVID-19 disease caused by SARS-CoV-2 virus, in individuals 16 years of age and older. The use of Comirnaty vaccine should be in accordance with official guidance.”

    And the EMA reviewed all the data, including that on outcomes concerning severity, and granted a very specific authorisation:

    Based on the CHMP review of data on quality, safety and efficacy, the CHMP considers by consensus that the benefit-risk balance of Comirnaty is favourable in the following indication:
    Comirnaty is indicated for active immunisation to prevent COVID-19 caused by SARS-CoV-2 virus, in individuals 16 years of age and older.

    These are facts, and thankfully most people are now able to recognise them as such, so need to be banished to the CT forum.

    https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/assessment-report/comirnaty-epar-public-assessment-report_en.pdf



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    #738
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,748 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328757#Comment_122328757

    I knew enough, but as I found with others on this thread, if I state qualifications, people dismiss you as a liar. None of my qualifications are in "Vaccines" but two are in Immunology so I feel I have a decent grounding. I also don't think it means I know better than someone who hasn't those qualifications but just that in some posts on this thread, I can see where people are (intentionally or not) mixing up technical language and layman's language.

    So in Layman's language, you refer to "at best reduce transmission and severe illness in vulnerable groups". It is said with a tone as if this isn't a really good result (maybe I have misread you). It is a really good result, at a population level you are playing the odds. Yes some people will get sick, some people will have very negative consequences and some will die. But as I said earlier in the thread, less people will get sick, less will have negative consequences and less again will die.

    Also the Vaccine uptake rate is not 90% currently, not even close, the data is freely available from the HSPC but population wise. A quick back of the envelope for all over 70s has us at about 24%, over 80s at 43%, way less for the population in general. It's not just anti vaxxers, it is just life, people forget, I didn't get mine this year, not out of badness or a stance. We normally get vaccinations FOC through work for flu season but it just never registered with me.

    You are of course right about N95 masks but with compliance so low, it should probably be reserved for settings where it will provide the most use such as healthcare. Local hospital to me is rampant with Covid, to the point there usually lax visiting hours are clamped down and close family only for all patients.



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    #739
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,734 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    100% yes

    As a young fit man there was no need , The pressure form the government was not need for people in my age group who a re git an healty



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    #740
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,914 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329073#Comment_122329073

    My son developed asthma after he caught swine flu at the age of around eight. Still has it 15 years later. So don't tell anyone that these diseases are harmless to young people, they aren't and he could die at any moment from a serious asthma attack caused directly by flu.



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    #741
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329060#Comment_122329060

    Ok. So you are not up to date on your Covid vaccines. Do you think that it is acceptable for you or others to 'forget' if you/they are so pro Covid Vaccine. Is it acceptable to lecture/berate others who have not taken the first one about their benefits when you are not up to date yourself. I would guess most persons who are not up to date have no intention of taking any more of the Covid vaccine. Maybe we could have a few comments from the Vaccine lapsers on here



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    #742
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,914 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329125#Comment_122329125

    As has been pointed out at many junctures, the main benefit derived from the COVID vaccines was when presented with a novel virus which no one had any immunity against.

    That is not the situation today.



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    #743
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,748 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329125#Comment_122329125

    It was just an error on my part, but no, it was inappropriate at best. I got a reminder but had just caught Covid. NIAC recommendations mean that I was not on the recommended list anymore. I did forget, this thread reminded me but I have since caught COVID again recently so am off the recommended list again for a further 6 months. I wasn't berating anyone about taking it, I was disagreeing with those who were claiming that the vaccines were failures, didn't work, etc based on their misunderstanding of what a working vaccine is. To put it in perspective, I would imagine we are in the round, a very pro vaccine country. Uptake this year across the board is well under 5%.

    You are indeed right, much like the flu vaccine, unless in a targetted group, I imagine most will not until they fall into one of these groups or a close friend or family member does. It is human nature. I would be doubtful any of them would claim vaccines don't work though, at worst, maybe through misunderstanding, think that they don't need one, and personally, they might not but as a member of a larger population, they should. It is not rocket science.



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    #744
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,445 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329124#Comment_122329124

    A former friend regaled me with the hazards of taking the vaccine. Eventually we had it out and stopped communicating.

    His wife gets to raise their teenage sons without him. Died from Covid in 2021. Guy was healthy 50-something.



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    #745
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329188#Comment_122329188

    Oh the irony of it.



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    #746
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329211#Comment_122329211

    There is still people dying with/because of Covid in 2024.



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    #747
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,748 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329284#Comment_122329284
    image.png

    Anything other than short non sequiturs? I am not entirely clear what your point or points are other than to seemingly disagree with everyone regardless of their viewpoint. It would be great if you could expand on your view of the current Covid 19 vaccine or vaccines in general.

    • are you ashamed to have gotten it?
    • do you think it has a net positive to the population?
    • why do you have these views? As in why are you ashamed/not ashamed? And why do you think it is a net negative or net positive to the general population?



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    #748
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,445 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    IMO the flu is one of the most downplayed illnesses around. I think it's the USA's 'you must work! work! work!' attitude that minimizes the impact. Having had it once for 2 weeks (and again a month later, not as bad as I caught up on the vaccine in between,) "as bad as the flu" can be really really bad. It's possible most of what's thought of as 'a touch of the flu' isn't influenza but some other virus.

    Anyway, living with an asthmatic I get the flu vaccine every year and the one year I missed is the year I caught it.



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    #749
    snowcat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329327#Comment_122329327

    Irony
    a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result.

    I just find it faintly amusing that you are seemingly plagued by Covid. Are very pro vaccine. Not fully vaccinated and just caught Covid. 😜



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    #750
    seanin4711
    Registered Users Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭seanin4711


    doesn't prevent infection, doesn't prevent spread.

    Sin e!



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    #751
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,905 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122328590#Comment_122328590

    I fully agree. More than a few anti-vaxxers (including right here on Boards) used the angle that "we were told" the vaccines would "stop" Covid, and you rightly point out that wasn't the case.



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