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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Funny the amount of stories on boards about people who can't seem to get the system working

    In reality millions of bottles are getting recycled daily.

    The issues seem to be limited to boards users, plus people on TikTok who think it is funny to act like an idiot and can't work out how to use the machines. That has to be a success so with such limited issies



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,051 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Don't forget Facebook and pub talk, lots of talk on the machines not working properly there. In fairness, where else would people complain about it though? Not familiar with the tick-tock part of your statement as I'm not a member

    And don't get me wrong, I'm not for one moment denying that this scheme has lead to better recycling. In fact I'd be very surprised if it hadn't! This is very obviously the one good news point about this scheme

    But the scheme was poorly implemented from the first day



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Facebook 😂 find a topic on facebook that people don't complain about

    No the scheme wasn't, the usual people who find fault with everything found fault with it.

    The odd person had some issue

    The majority just got on with it and used it, hence why the numbers are so big and the trash is down



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    Can't wait for these heatwaves circa 30° sounds lovely about now instead of turning on my oil in fcuking July.

    Forgive me if I think this study is a load of ballix and if it isn't happy freaking days I can break out the bbq.

    Win win.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    That is my point, those are not the only place both Luas lines run through.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,051 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    It would be great if all the machines worked the way they were supposed to, the recycling rates would be much higher. Personally I'm never buying a can of beer again if I can avoid it, glass bottles (which I recycle) all the way



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Messing with computers again, If they want to play computer games they should stick to GTA V

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    There was millions of bottles being recycled daily before the scheme was ever thought of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,059 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    No we don't need to get used to it. We had a perfectly good system until the Greens decided to foist this on us, with the usual palaver of EU regulations.

    The public do have a choice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo




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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    This is the only part of the article you need to pay attention too

    "To develop our statistical model, we used a combination of weather station data and climate model information. This approach allowed us to address issues of missing station data while using the detailed physics captured by climate models. Our combination of these data sources means we are able to produce a comprehensive analysis of extreme temperature events."

    Without hesitation you can completely disregard what they are saying. Anyone that understands computer modelling knows that the results are not too be trusted. It's guesswork layered on top of assumptions and sold to the general population as fact.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,566 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Without hesitation you can completely disregard what they are saying. Anyone that understands computer modelling knows that the results are not too be trusted.

    I disagree completely. What you are reading there is full and open disclosure. You will find similar statements in scientific documents, no matter the topic. It was very clear to me reading that article that the authors had put a lot of effort in to explaining the topic, their process and the qualifications and experience of those involved precisely because they know that there are too many people ignorant of the facts but confident in their opinion eager to completely disregard everything without hesitation.

    It's very frustrating that such people seek to, and succeed to, influence the wider public discourse on the matter with zero qualifications or experience on the topic in the vast amount of cases. For you to suggest computer modelling is not to be trusted in a world in which we now have weather accuracy to a 15 minute window is just nonsensical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,566 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    I read this post last night and obviously shook my head because I disagreed with it completely, but I was trying to think of a response that would make sense to you but I'm not sure that that is possible. I mean, this is an article based on the work of scientists and the details of their process and experience, with links is there for you already to see if you are so inclined. And patently you're not.

    But let me try to explain it this way. Imagine when you were in your early 20's, a summers Saturday evening and you and friends are heading out for the night. Ye're driving to a bar or nightclub or something and the radio is on, the windows down, and form is good. And ye're speeding, its exciting, exhilarating! All around the country and beyond, every Saturday night millions more are doing the same thing and for the vast majority, it's safe and there's no issues. But every so often, something happens, the car flips, rolls, or whatever and there's a tragic incident. Now imagine that you don't just drive like that on a weekend evening every so often, but more and more during the week as well, and on dark nights in winter. And so too does everyone else. What do you think will happen? More incidents, more tragedy, more death, more suffering.

    To look at the vast amount of information relation to climate change and to cherry pick the incidental warmer weather as a positive without looking at the bigger picture is phenomenally stupid. What will come with that odd occasion of you thinking this is class, is people at the same time suffering with heat stroke, dehydration, fatigue and other symptoms that can and will be fatal to some. It comes with extremes at the other end of the scale as well in more frequent flash floods, more violent storms and the food supply and safety issues that these events can bring.

    A lot of us won't be around to see the worst of this, but our descendants will be, and not like 10 layers removed or anything but likely our children, definitely our grandchildren at this rate. The climate is a behemoth, it has take decades of abuse to bring it to flipping, it will take much longer to bring it back.

    The Greens weren't wonderful, but look at the environment (pun intended) in which they were and continue to operate. FG/FF signed Ireland up to the Paris Accord and the emission reduction targets contained within that, but since then, it has been left to the Greens to advocate for any sort of policy to help meet those targets and all they, and Eamonn Ryan, have gotten for the effort is ridicule and abuse. A lot of people will read this final sentence and say 'So fu*king what' but I no longer think humans can manage the climate change issue, I think we'll see the outcome of this issue impact billions worldwide which will lead to conflict, war and the associated problems as literally tens of millions from the global south look to migrate to safer locations. Anyone who spends any amount of time talking about stopping migration should be the ones demanding action on the climate, it is likely going to be the biggest cause of forced migration the world has ever seen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭easygoing39


    July 3rd and we've the heat on here in work,its f3cking freezing!! When are we in Ireland getting some of this lovely 30c weather???



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭batman_oh




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,051 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Just to be clear, the green party are not the ones that foisted the scheme on us. The requirement for the scheme was agreed at EU level by all member state governments. We would have a deposit return scheme regardless of who was in government, although it might not be the exact same scheme

    The greens, through the department of the environment, of which Eamon Ryan is the minister responsible, created the specific scheme that we have and despite it's clear downfalls are refusing to admit it's not fit for purpose.

    TL;DR

    Without the greens we would still have a deposit return scheme, although maybe a slightly different one



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    You're free to disagree and I will continue to point out the futility of these studies.

    And not to point out the obvious but the weather is not the climate (unless I've missed the memo). Even with all the resources and compute power available we still can't tell what the weather will be like in a certain area more than a day or two out and even then it has a margin for error.

    I don't think I will change yourind but having experience with computer modelling over a long time I can tell you it's extremely sensitive to even the smallest of input parameter changes. Take a CFD study for a large building, which is a closed system and a hell of a lot easier to model than our climate, and even then the results all come with huge caveats based on the input variables. Oh, the corridor widths are off by 5%, need to redo the study. Didn't account for those extra inlets, need to redo the study. The exhaust fans are actually 3% more powerful, yep, you guessed it, redo the study.

    Nobody, and I mean nobody, can accurately model our climate because we still don't fully understand how all the variables play out. Water vapour? Yeah, we'll ig ore that because we don't understand it. You starting to gety point now?

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,051 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    This is what irks me the most about climate scientists, they can never get their timing right. Yesterday they announced a warning of up to 33 degrees while looking out the window at November weather. What they are saying is true, no doubt, but they really should have delayed their report until later in the year when we will be more likely to experience the extreme temperatures. What they did yesterday makes them look like right eejits

    Also announced yesterday, the coldest June since 2015, another effect of climate change, no doubt, but flies in the face of the 33 degrees warning.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/weather/2024/0702/1457709-june-weather/



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,566 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    You starting to gety point now?

    No.

    We trust scientific rigor to develop all sorts of products, equipment and processes that we use every day. Often with a degree of inaccuracy within constituent parts. I'm an engineer, I don't claim to know the specifics of climate science, in fact I'm totally fine admitting I don't, neither do you (either claim it, or know it) but I know that those that do, say that action is needed.

    I trust the process when I eat food, take medication, get in a car or on an airplane as do most people (although sadly we saw a pushback during Covid which was massively led by those uneducated in the field also), the climate topic will probably be more impactful and be harder to resolve.

    The Greens have generally acted with the best intentions and with the most qualified guidance. For them to be ridiculed as they experience on places such as this thread is just counter intuitive from people who also claim to hate parish pump and reactionary politics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    I'm going to be pedantic here because it's important. We use science to develop falsifiable theories that can then be tested in the field.

    Engineering then takes these findings and develops real world solutions. It also deals in tolerances, which as an Engineer you know already. Those tolerances are what is to have such safe air travel and all the important parts of modern society.

    The tolerances that these climate scientists are dealing in make their findings next to worthless. I still think the work they do has a place, which is in academia. Once it hits the real world it runs into all sorts of problems real quick.

    Tying COVID in to this is nothing more than muddying the waters. It has nothing to do with climate science, other than both requiring a form of religious belief in infallibility of those making grand proclamations without solid data to back them up.

    The road to hell is paved with best intentions. The green ideology has a worrying Malthusian undercurrent and also has the potential to destroy the economy with its 'best intentions' and following 'the science'.

    They are snake oil salesmen in different clothing.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,068 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    That is not exactly how it works though. The E.U. is not ruled by a federal government in Brussels that can dictate legislation for all E.U. states based on a simple majority vote of the E.U. parliament.

    The final decision on what becomes E.U. policy, or not, comes down to the Council which consists of a government minister from each state. Depending on the proposed policy area some of these decisions require a unanimous vote to pass, while others require a qualified majority. A case in point being the E.U. parliament voting to ban ICEs after 2035 which Germany`s delegates voted in favour of not being accepted by the Germany government, or the Italian government among others, resulting in ICEs being allowed after 2035 if they use e-fuel.

    It`s one of the checks and balances that the E.U. trumpets as being a democratic safeguard, but has now been shown as a sham thanks in no small measure to our own greens of Ryan and Noonan on the Nature Restoration Law that was withdrawn at Council level during the old parliament because it was not going to get the qualified majority required with them trying to push it through before a new parliament was formed as they knew it would have even less chance of passing.

    That resulted in the E.U. disgracing itself accepting a vote from an Austrian green minister, who not only had no authority from the Austrian government to vote in favour, who along with the Belgian chairperson of the Council been informed by the Austrian government as not having the authority, still had her vote accepted by the Belgian green minister chairing that Council meeting.

    ''



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    You might, might, get a political party to promise in an election manifesto that they will abolish the scheme because it is oppressive on the ordinary man (PBP probably, and SF possibly, depending on how far down the populist rabbit hole sewer they go) but you won't get it abolished because that party won't deliver on the promise or won't be able to deliver on that promise. It is here to stay.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Grangegorman is transformed, Dominic is beginning to get there, with new building going up, the whole area around Hawkins Street. Before that, when the Green line was built, you saw the start of the revival around Harcourt which has exponentially grown. Not all of it can be transformed immediately.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Hitchens razor, "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence". The technology exists to look over the horizon combined with sensor data to compute what the weather attributes will be in a specific location in 15 minutes. If you ask Met Eireann what the weather will be like in your area this time next year, the reply is "we do not provide long term weather forecasts". One of the regular features of the boards weather forum are the outputs of different model ensembles, their accuracy declines rapidly beyond 3 days, 2 weeks is as far as they can look to get a hint something might be up, most solutions are a bust. Even when you look at weather events like Ophelia, forecasters have to deal with a range of uncertainty within the event itself. For instance nobody figured the timing of the event in the South West of the country, this became a problem because the kids were in school waiting to go home at the same time a trees were coming down on the roads.

    The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system,and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible. source


    The computer models have zero skill in predicting long range weather patterns for different climate zones, the further in time their projections go the wider the error bars become. The model outputs are not evidence, they can let their imaginations run riot with assumptions when they don't know how to model or find the task too difficult. In recent years the attribution of "extreme weather" events to greenhouse gases using computer model outputs has provided the justification for today’s disastrous net zero energy policies. The output is not evidence, it can also be dismissed without evidence.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306


    A bit of perspective from the 2024 Statistical Review of World Energy.

    Global CO₂ equivalent emissions grew by 2.1% in 2023, crossing 40 billion metric tons for the first time. (source)

    That's an increase of 840 million tonnes, or 14 times Ireland's total emissions. If we slashed our emissions to zero, it would be less than the global monthly increase.

    Carbon emissions in the U.S. declined by 2.7% from 2022, and emissions in the European Union fell by 6.6%. But, across Asia Pacific, emissions jumped 4.9%, an increase equivalent to triple the combined decline in the U.S. and EU.

    Much of the reduction in the West over recent decades is the result of switching from coal to natural gas. 92% of emissions increases since 1990 have come from the Asia Pacific region. If you look at economic growth in India compared to China over that period, India has barely gotten started. And a lot of Africa hasn't got started at all. India and Africa contain a third of the world's population and could drive energy demand increases in the 21st century.

    Renewables continue to increase at a rapid clip, growing nearly 60% between 2012 and 2022 (source). But they are not even keeping up with demand increase. Overall energy demand increased by 16% and 65% of that was met by fossil fuels. Even in the renewables category 55% is accounted for by biomass which is arguably not very "green".

    It's obvious that renewables are not going to get us to net zero. Global net zero by 2050 would involve the equivalent of closing one or two large natural gas power plants every day from now until then. We would have to install the equivalent of Ireland's entire current wind generation every day (and, of course, shut down the fossil fuel equivalent since merely adding renewables doesn't reduce emissions).

    Hydrocarbons continue to be the cheapest, most accessible sources of energy. They are the obvious choice for developing countries. The world really needs a breakthrough in cheap low-carbon energy for any inroads to be made.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,051 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Unlikely that a left wing party would make such promises in the face of climate action being needed, more likely to find a Healy-Rae or some other "non-believer" independent putting that on their manifesto



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,273 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    @Prunudo threadban lifted



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Sinn Fein want to abolish the carbon tax, so getting rid of the plastic bottle scheme is a smaller issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,051 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Has Carbon tax worked? It was introduced as part of budget 2010, in the last 14 years there hasn't been any major reduction in our carbon emissions. Also there's a direct link between the carbon tax and the cost of heating homes so there's a good reason to at least abolish it on that



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,516 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    No it hasn't worked to reduce emissions, but has raised money



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