Deposit return scheme (recycling) - Part 2

Independent news paper saying bin charges will have to go up now as lost millions due to this DRS.

It will get to a stage enough will be enough and only time will tell with more rubbish piling up.

We should not have bin companies, this is a service the council should be running. But a simple solution to the latest problem created by the greens is to make the bin companies part of the re-turn scheme and give them a share of the profits. If the same logic applies then the price of collections should come down

The scheme doesn't need to be abolished, it needs to be fixed. 4 steps that if a SF policy maker is here should take note of

1. Remove the deposit and the return and make it like how we return glass bottles, which are currently returned to over 90%
2. Remove private bin companies from our system and put refuse collection back in council hands. This should also help with illegal dumping
3. Remove the requirement for barcodes and re-turn logos, should help importers
4. Allow cans to be crushed so space can be saved

I can't see anybody thinking these aren't logical steps that people wouldn't vote for but at the same time keeping the rates of return and hopefully recycling high

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexford/opinion/simon-bourke-price-of-aluminium-on-the-rise-as-customers-lose-out-in-the-recycling-war/a1433655958.html

Some quotes from behind the paywall:

And having wholeheartedly embraced this initiative, declared it the cleverest, most innovative thing the Government has done in aeons, the customers are now set to be penalised with a price hike from the aforementioned bin companies. Yes, that’s right, by taking our bottles and cans to the machines, by tussling with the slot, fumbling with the buttons, and doing what we’re told, we are now set to see yet another household bill increase.
...
For my part at least, the irony is that I haven’t once used the DRS, have continued to feed that shiny aluminium and PET plastic into the recycling bin, keeping the bin collectors in a job and sustaining the circular economy without receiving a cent in return. Now, despite my diligence, my loyalty, I am to be penalised for the actions of others, for the creation of a scheme I wanted no part of.
...
Of course the reason why the DRS was introduced in the first place was because we weren’t recycling enough, because we needed to be lured into doing it with promises of pocket money, rewarded for our efforts in saving a planet which we previously didn’t care about.
Already there’s talk of increasing the bounty associated with these cans and bottles, giving people even more incentive to save the planet, more incentive to take part in a scheme which we’re repeatedly told is one of the great success stories of our time. We’re going to need that bounty, need those receipts, once the binmen start hiking up the prices.
Only in Ireland could something so straightforward be made so complicated, could the redistribution of used materials become a source of so much contention.

Some good points raised. An amazing exercise in masochism all round.

Full article for those interested:

Jaysus cop on. If any business loses a % of their income stream they will increase their prices. Whether it is 15 million or 5 million is irrelevant. Maybe ask ReTurn what is their estimated proceeds from their sale of recyclables.

You've cherry picked one waste company. Many people are on different packages. Besides, those prices are based on the green bin containing valuable recyclables, which are likely cross subsidising other the price for other bins. The rules of the game have changed.

I have seen no details from Return of exactly how much of their funding cones from sale of recyclables?

Have you?

Yet didnt you list official info on the scheme that it was significant enough to be listed as specific category of its funding?

This is not small change.

Obviously that is going to impact bin collection prices.

It is obvious. It is even noted in posts you have made on this thread listing Returns sources of funding. True or false?

Not a good look is it when you are contradicting your own posts?

Why dont Return provide the information on their expected funding from the items?

I dont know what universe you think this is a rule or how the premise of that question has any relevance.

15 million euro of funding gone from the bin companies.

Do you expect them to print money?

Collect your bins at a loss?

In the real world these are the economic realities that lead to price increases.

If it was a publicly run scheme funded by LPT the same loss of revenue stream would impact funding of the whole operation.

So spare us the irrelevent venting about profits.

This was explained to you already on the thread and you had no credible response then either.

They are not just collecting your bin. They are collecting tens of thousands and enough of those bins had recyclables sufficient to provide revenue to help fund the operation.

Do you think you as an individual get some bespoke specific pricing?

You dont get that for bin charges.

You dont get that for LPT.

Thats the real world.

If they were in breach of contract in selling on the recyclables you should sue them.

If they are in breach of contract in increasing prices to cover the lost revenue, you should sue them.

I think you will find the contract entitles them to increase prices. Either you keep paying or change supplier. As this has affected all bin companies thats not a real solution either.

Would you expect bin companies to keep collecting your bins if you stop paying?

If you were supplying a shop and could no longer provide the product, would you expect the shop to keep paying you?

So in what real world would you expect the company buying the recyclables to keep paying the bin companies?

Baffling nonsense.

The reality is the bin companies will get the 15 million back - if not from the government or Return then in higher charges to customers.

No one has given any credible or coherent alternative. Tangents about contracts and profits are irrelevancies that dont change that reality.

A few posts in this thread have outlined price increases by bin companies since the turn of the year, myself included, local operator increasing monthly fee by 1.75. Am still awaiting an email as to why but again the logic as to why would be straightforward in the context of this thread, whether they will state it or not.

That was probably to do with the levy, which they would have been entitled to put back on customers. But there is zero evidence that they are suffering any losses from DRS. It looks like they got their friends in the press to put out vague stories about an increase, but they failed to go through the proper channels to present evidence to the Minister first.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/75262-introduction-of-new-environment-levies-will-incentivise-recycling-and-help-ireland-meet-our-eu-waste-targets/#

The legislation introduces a waste recovery levy of €10 per tonne (or 1,000kg), and a €10 increase to the existing "landfill levy" to €85 per tonne. As the levies apply only to ‘black’ bin waste, householders can manage the impact of this charge by sorting their waste and reusing and recycling as much as possible to minimise their overall household waste charges.

It's you because Fine Gael privatised our waste collection out to a bunch of cowboys who only care about their bottom line. That's why YOU'LL end up paying more when THEIR profits are affected. Re-turn are now making bank on items like aluminium because of this idiotic scam and the likes of Greyhound, Panda, City Bin, Thorntons, etc aren't going to just shrug their shoulders at that. They'll recoup their loses by increasing their charges…and no doubt stick an extra few cent on top of that as well, just because.

It goes back to 1977 when Fianna Fail got the biggest majority in the history of the State. And was the last one party government we had. Based on their promise to abolish Domestic Rates and Road/Motor Tax. Rates were a property tax to fund waste collection and water services by Local Authorities. It was a disaster for local government funding, and has had a long history of sorting out since. Privitisation of waste collection was a logical outcome. And the new version of Property Tax we got more recently. Only water remains to be added to the list.

SF promise to abolish Property Tax (they call it the Family Home Tax). We will see how that goes if they get in. They never did anything to abolish it in the North.

https://irishelectionliterature.com/2010/10/18/from-1977-the-fianna-fail-manifesto-an-action-plan-for-national-recovery-abridged-version/

SF promise to abolish Property Tax (they call it the Family Home Tax). We will see how that goes if they get in. They never did anything to abolish it in the North.

Slightly off topic but SF are in a power sharing agreement with the DUP up north so they don't have control over every aspect of life there. They successfully kept water charges out of the north as part of the power sharing and property taxes in the north pay for things like education, health and roads. They have things like free education, free healthcare and proper roads up there as a result

It's illogical to compare SF performance in the north to what they could achieve if they come into power in Leinster House

To go back on topic, I think after their recent election result the DRS might be open to change by them

Being in a coalition does not stop a party from pursuing their own policies. The biggest scandal in the North is that no party challenged the power of the mansion owners. Until recently. Multi million Pound mansions pay the same as someone with a £400K house.

SF will be in coalition here as well, if they abandon the nonsense that getting the most votes is the same as a majority. So I expect that they will quietly sideline the promise to abolish the Family Home Tax.

"Capping 

The maximum capital valuation for a domestic property is £400, 000. For any house valued over £400, 000, LPS disregards the additional value when calculating rates. "

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/northern-ireland/most-valuable-ni-homes-face-a-huge-bill-if-the-domestic-rates-cap-abolished/a1366846488.html

Then you will also know that Local Authorities, not the private sector tried to charge for their bins first. But protestors stopped this happening. Privitisation was the only thing left.

Sinn Fein would actually do well to campaign against all sorts of direct taxes like the Property Tax. This is what is popular with property owners, who tend to vote in bigger numbers than other sections of the community. The FF abolition was known as the Retired Teachers vote. People with big houses and big Rates bills, but with smaller incomes in their retirement. You will also remember that a few years after that we had the Tax marches, PAYE workers rebelling against 60% income tax being used to replace the Domestic Rates income stream.

Selling off public services to private interests never works out for Joe public, end of. We ALWAYS end up paying more for less.

But I remember that you were all on for the privatisation of our water services a number of years ago, so that fact is probably wasted on you.

Saw a fella in the city centre today with a grabber and bag of cans he had found on the streets - guess in one way this is a good thing that he is kinda cleaning up the city but sucks that people just throw stuff on the ground because DCC have removed as many bins as they can get away with (since privatisation)

I am of the opinion that every household should pay a charge that covers bins, street cleaning etc - go to almost any European city and you would never see the amount of dumping that happens in this country (then again there is a different mentality there as well)

I think the only reason people are against the Property Tax because it is not indirect, the DRS can at least be spun as "protecting the environment"/ "the common good"/ "saving the planet" or whatever.

But my suspicions were proved correct that "protecting the environment" is mainly a money making scheme by vested interests. When the bin companies started warning about potential increased charges.

It reminds me of the TV series the Sopranos, they were involved in "waste disposal" as well! There is money to be made in it. All the vested interests want a piece of it.

I wonder what percentage of those kids fruit juice bottles sold in McDonald's end up getting returned for a deposit refund by the customer? Anytime I've been in McDonald's I've seen 100% end up in the bin. I can't figure out why restaurants weren't exempt but then airport departure areas aren't either.....

Like a lot of good fiction The Sopranos was based on factual events.

https://medium.com/limited-liabilities-by-colbeck/the-cosa-nostra-candy-store-organized-crime-and-the-waste-collection-industry-8f9e2ff62465

Still trying to conflate not using a frustrating half baked DRS scheme designed to make people "forgo" deposits with "throwing money away" is pretty pathetic at this stage.

Another thing I've experienced is shops parking trolleys of stock directly in front of the machine, it would make one go Victor Meldrew