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N4 - Mullingar to Rooskey [route options published]

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    #212
    highdef
    Registered Users Posts: 6,240 ✭✭✭highdef


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322147#Comment_122322147

    Well, we'll find out in just over 5 hours time!

    https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2024/0702/1457625-n4-project/



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    #213
    Standard Toaster
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Standard Toaster


    Looks like the site went live at 1230

    The expected Navy route selected.

    https://consultation.n4mullingartolongford.ie/

    Post edited by Standard Toaster on


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    #214
    Jp177
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Jp177


    So that's it then, I assume this last round of consultation is box ticking, they're not going to change from this route…..???

    Now we can focus on wondering if it will actually be built.



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    #215
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322147#Comment_122322147

    This was a good idea, but they went with a route south of E’town.



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    #216
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122329982#Comment_122329982

    Sweet Jesus. Their route map is overlaid on a map so old that the N5 Longford bypass (opened 2012) isn’t indicated. I checked for that road specifically to ensure the new road would interface correctly with it. (Hint: it doesn’t).



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    #217
    DumbBrunette
    Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122331857#Comment_122331857

    I'm planning to make a submission online to raise that exact point. If you do the same that might add some weight.



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    #218
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Often drive this road- while it’s actually not bad for the most part when it’s (rarely) quiet- the non hard shouldered bit between Longford and Edgeworthstown is probably the worst part- but it’s all just way over capacity. Last day I was on it nearly a months ago I remarked how big the volume of trucks is - not surprising I suppose as there’s quite a bit of industry along that corridor. 3/4/5 in convoys which slows things down a lot.
    It’s grand having all these fancy plans but without the political will and drive to build I just can’t see this happening anytime soon and at that they’ll drag it out and water it down into smaller phases- sad but I’m a realist and I’ve seen enough in my 40 years to know what to expect (or not).



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    #219
    p_haugh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122331857#Comment_122331857

    Just to point out, the interactive map does include the N5 Longford Bypass. Still, not great that the other one doesnt. Agreed that it's a poor interface

    image.png



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    #220
    KrisW1001
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Yes, it's strange not to run the new road along the path of the existing bypass here, but it does have the advantage of keeping local traffic off "new N4". (And it won't force traffic back through the town during construction)



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    #221
    I told ya
    Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭I told ya


    Can't wait to see the detailed design for the N4/N5 interchange.

    I'll wager a roundabout, any advances? Anyone, traffic lights?

    I'll probably be 6ft under by the time it's built.



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    #222
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Some would say this is overbuilding but I always assumed there would be two junctions, one for Longford town the other for the N5. It would feature a link road getting you from the N5 junction on the new N4 to the existing N4/N5 roundabout.

    The arrangement they are planning will mean that the new N4 to N5 routing will not be intuitive and I’d be afraid a lot of people will go through the middle of Longford town as a result.



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    #223
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    I see now that there is a "side road" treatment planned on the new N4 with R198 which leads directly to the new N5 Longford Bypass. They might signpost you to go that way to get to the N5 but it should be treated better than a side road junction.

    Post edited by spacetweek on


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    #224
    joeymcg
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭joeymcg


    I would imagine the current N4 bypass of Longford Town will be re designated N5 after opening of the new scheme. So whatever roundabout? grade separated junction? on the new N4 route will have a signpost of Longford Town via N5 route. I would guess the new link road will be somewhere between Padraic Colum roundabout and the R194 (Abbott) roundabout



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    #225
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,871 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122332965#Comment_122332965

    It’s grand having all these fancy plans but without the political will and drive to build I just can’t see this happening anytime soon and at that they’ll drag it out and water it down into smaller phases

    That is inevitably going to happen. Assuming it gets planning approval, it will be looking for €0.5bn+ around the end of this decade when there are also several billion worth of other road projects earmarked for construction (M20, N11, N2 x 2, N24 x 2, N13/14/15, etc.). Given the cost involved, the Business Case here is going to be weak as the two main towns are already bypassed.

    The most I could see happening is the southern end to north of Rathowen being built. I could see a programme of buying out houses along the road followed by online upgrades being more likely, particularly as environmental factors make large scale new road builds unpalatable.



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    #226
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,794 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122337603#Comment_122337603

    If you drive the road frequently, you'll notice that many of the houses alongside (between Mullingar and Longford at least) are already long term vacant/derelict. I suspect there already is a programme of buying whatever comes to market.

    The business case is likely to be made on safety, not town bypasses - with Ryan out of Transport within months the bypass-towns-but-nothing-else approach that has cut the Carrick on Shannon scheme so much will probably be gone.



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    #227
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,871 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122337611#Comment_122337611

    Yes several of the houses are already vacant and I suspect several more will be after the current occupant ceases to live there. There really should be a formal process of preventing continued occupation of these houses beyond the current occupants. After that, even if you bought out another 20 at €0.5m each (i.e. way above market value), it would only cost €10m. CPO'ing the 52km route for the new road would cost more.

    Safety doesn't mean a new road is needed, certainly not if the cost is €500m and major environmental impact. If safety is the issue to be solved, then just lower the speed limit and install average speed cameras.

    Ryan going isn't going to change anything. The direction of travel is clear, between cost and planning issues, this road simply isn't going to happen.



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    #228
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,794 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338346#Comment_122338346

    Limit changes and speed cameras won't fix the road being over capacity; which is a significant element of the safety problem. It has to be updated to DC, with the three villages bypassed.

    (AADT just beyond Rathowen is ~13,800 with a pretty high 10% HGV.

    LOS D for a T1 single (most of this is T1, albeit not all) is 11,600 and indeed 11,600 is the level at which TII start indicating T2 dual instead for new projects - and that would be predicted AADT for a future design year; whereas this is at 13,800 now)

    Retrofitting T2 dual online would require three village bypasses, very significant volumes of access roads and the fitting of overbridges for some of the existing junctions. Whether this would be any cheaper than 0.5bn is questionable.

    There appears to be elements of online or possibly online in the preferred route corridor as is; presumably where there aren't huge constraints in place.



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    #229
    highdef
    Registered Users Posts: 6,240 ✭✭✭highdef


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338346#Comment_122338346

    The current 100 km/h speed limit is fine and on the very rare time that I don't have a slow vehicle in front, I'll set the cruise control to 104 (real speed will be 100) for all sections with that limit and never have to adjust my speed. I'm all for speed cameras everywhere as is the case now. Poor driver behaviour and/or excessive speeding are the main reasons for incidents, lowering the speed limit will not stop this in any way. A lowering of a speed limit does not turn an inherently bad driver into a good one.

    As mentioned, the issue is that there are two many vehicles for the road in question plus the fact that it's single lane means that overtaking is often a dangerous thing to carry out plus the places where you can (safely) do so are very limited. A lot of HGVs use the road too and they are generally limited to 90km/h meaning long lines of vehicles often occur due to an inability to pass said HGVs.

    Additionally, some drivers drive very slowly on the N4 for whatever reason. I'm talking as low as 70/80 km/h on a clear day with good weather. Not only will these cars drive slowly but they rarely move over to the hard shoulder to allow vehicles pass by on clear straight stretches. You'd nearly swear their thought process is "I'm driving at this nice slow speed and nobody else is going to drive faster".

    One last annoying thing to note is the driver who will be heading eastbound on the single lane section of the N4 towards Dublin who will consistently drive at 80/90 km/h despite the driving lanes being massive. As soon as the driver hits the dual carriageway, he/she speeds up to the limit or above for absolutely no logical reason. If anything, you'd think the driver would slow further as the driving lanes are narrower on the dual carriageway compared to the single lanes further west. I might have sat behind this driver from Edgeworthstown or before and have not been able to safely pass and then as soon as I reach the dualler, the car is now driving faster than me. I can't get my head around that at all.



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    #230
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,871 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338430#Comment_122338430

    Like I said; "the most I could see happening is the southern end to north of Rathowen being built".



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    #231
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,794 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338702#Comment_122338702

    I doubt AADT falls off that significantly before Longford.

    After Longford, no counter til fairly far away and it has dropped below 8k by then.



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    #232
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,794 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338588#Comment_122338588

    The "70km/h everywhere" crowd who overtake you in the 50 zones if you have recently passed them doing 70 in the 100 zones are another issue here, when the road is quiet enough for this to be possible of course.



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    #233
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Very little of the new road will be on online so I’m not sure why some of you are talking about vacant houses and demolishing buildings.

    “…online upgrades being more likely, particularly as environmental factors make large scale new road builds unpalatable.”

    Online upgrades are serious safety hazards as they necessarily create vast numbers of side road accesses which might come with median breaks. We need to make sure that environmental factors (which you could say about any transport project) don’t get in the way of large road projects in future.



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    #234
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,794 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338764#Comment_122338764

    The environmental impact of the vast amount of concrete required for overbridges on online retrofits can't be ignored either.

    If you did this online, you couldn't use roundabouts in cases where roundabouts will be used on an offline build. There's still land take, there's still earthworks, there's still structures to build.

    Online retrofitting is not cheap, not easy and not guaranteed to have any lower environmental impact. But it doesn't look as problematic from a "no new roads" perspective - something that shouldn't matter once Ryan is gone from that role. Even if the Greens survive in Government they'll never get Transport again.

    There are sections of the N4 which are 1990s, WS2/Type 1 SC, offline new builds which should be converted online; but one such stretch was removed from the C-O-S bypass route!



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    #235
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,871 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Eamon Ryan is irrelevant here, his departure isn't going to change requirements in relation to EISs, PSC, road funding availability, etc. several years from now.



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    #236
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,794 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122339265#Comment_122339265

    He's the one pushing the idea of town bypasses being acceptable; full schemes not - for his own personal political aims.

    This will pass an EIS and meet the PSC; funding is the only potential issue.



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    #237
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,871 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122339277#Comment_122339277

    But whats proposed here is a "full scheme", not just town bypasses so what influence from eamon Ryan's personal political aims are you seeing here?



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