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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 972 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    I was very struck by the cyclist Emily Bridges who refused to compete in an “open” category in cycling.

    No they have to race against biological women cyclists only! Why ??

    Cheating!! Same as Thomas and others. It’s not about rights, it’s not about competing - it’s about mediocre athletes wanting an advantage.

    It’s Lance Armstrong but with ideologues supporting you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    If Bridges refuses to compete, that's their decision.

    I have no sympathy for athletes that want to secure any kind of unfair advantage.

    Repackaging unfair advantage under the term "inclusion" is embarrassing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭Enduro


    This just popped into one of my sports feeds this morning…

    https://marathonhandbook.com/aayden-gallacher-oregon-state-championship/

    Whilst I don't think it's fair to the athlete, who is competing as the rules allow, it shows how these rules, which allow male sex athletes to compete in the female category, are very unpopular in reality (as well as being fundamentally unfair, IMO).

    Everybody is ending up worse off under these rules.



  • Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭Gamergurll




  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    More women have decided enough is enough with this nonsense. It seems we're at a turning point.

    We recently had the case of Deta Hedman in darts, too:

    British female darts player Deta Hedman refused to play against a transgender competitor in the Denmark Open over the weekend and removed herself from the competition.

    Hedman was set to face Noa-Lynn van Leuven in the quarterfinals of the tournament but opted not to play instead and forfeited.

    She added, “This subject causing much angst in the sport I love . People can be whoever they want in life but I don’t think biological born men should compete in Women’s sport.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,154 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Once the conversation moves from theoretical to practical it's going to become more and more obvious that male advantage is actually an advantage.

    This will be uncomfortable for many but it didn't have to be this way. The science behind this is very basic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,500 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    It goes towards what a lot have been saying in here, that those who support this kind of nonsense of letting males compete against females and lobbying it as "fair" are pretty much on a faith based foundation. They will use every and any excuse that this should be allowed over some rubbish to do with human rights…it is pathetic and evil.

    The sooner that some common sense kicks in, along with just understanding that it is scientific fact, the better.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    Anyone who believes that biological males should compete against women is an ideological extremist.

    We then have said extremists calling anyone who calls out their extremism as bigoted and prejudiced.

    That gaslighting and manipulation is extraordinary — and absolutely disgusting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,375 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Is this the same event or another one? It came up in my feed this morning, but I can't be certain it's not the same race, as the camera angle is different.

    Title IX is in the process of effectively being rescinded by the Biden administration by allowing male students who declare themselves to be female to participate in female sports on the grounds of anti LGTQ+ discrimination. They haven't yet released the separate set of rules dealing with transgender athletes’ participation in sports, but if the rules are as currently proposed, that will be the result, so that is how schools and universities are being advised to proceed in the run-up to the final publication.

    The revised regulations for Title IX, the law outlawing sex discrimination at federally funded schools, expand the definition of sex-based discrimination and harassment to explicitly prohibit discrimination based on sex stereotypes, pregnancy or related conditions, sexual orientation, gender identity, and sex characteristics.

    The U.S. Department of Education already interprets Title IX to include protection against discrimination based on gender identity and sexuality … But the new rules make that explicit under Title IX without room for interpretation otherwise. The department released a resource for schools as they work to draft policies that align with the new rules. In it, the department states that schools must adopt, publish, and implement a “nondiscrimination policy.”

    https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/new-title-ix-rule-has-explicit-ban-on-discrimination-of-lgbtq-students/2024/04



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    It's absolutely outrageous to amend Title IX to increase discrimination against women in sports.

    Because that's what it amounts to; appealing to some biological males at the expense of women.

    The Biden Administration has been radicalised by this extreme ideology.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,375 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    The disaster in the US is that the issue has been allowed to be hijacked by their ideological warfare, so that leftwing (well, Democrat-voting) women like Martina Navratilova can't be too outspoken while remaining a Democrat.

    It has also meant that a rightwing nut like Ted Cruz has ended up speaking up for female prisoners' rights against a female judge who is apparently happy to sacrifice them.

    It's crazy. I can only justify it as an example of a stopped clock being right twice a day.

    In the UK things are looking rather better, with for instance Labour people such as Wes Streeting at last admitting that they have got this wrong:

    I think if we allow this to be seen as a right/left opposition, women will lose out. Because the truth is that neither the right nor the left actually care about women - they just use women's issues in different ways, but always subservient to the interests of men in the party.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    It's not a left-right issue. It's a right or wrong issue.

    And most people in the country are opposed to biological males competing against women.

    In the US:

    Nearly 70% of U.S. adults say transgender athletes should be allowed to compete only on sports teams that correspond with the sexes they were assigned at birth, Gallup found.

    In the UK:

    The public are strongly opposed to trans women athletes participating in women’s sporting events, by 61% versus just 16% who are supportive.

    Only 16% in support of the measure.

    We cannot push through discriminatory measures against women on the basis that some biological males are angry about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭Enduro


    It's a different event (different stadium, different winning margin), but quite possibly the same athlete (I can't tell from the footage one way or the other). The video I referenced was the Oregon State Championship, so very likely to be influential for college scholarships. Of course, Oregon is a "blue" state, which makes the public booing even more telling. This can't be put down as just some kind of MAGA/republican political reaction.

    Title IX is where this issue becomes deadly serious and life-changing, without doubt. Like it or not, the reality is that sports scholarships are often the only realistic chance for some people to be able to afford a college education in the USA. So to have male sex athletes take from the (limited, finite) pool of female scholarships will more than likely have a life-altering negative effect on the female sex athlete who misses out on a scholarship they would otherwise have attained.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,375 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Indeed. Even a single biological male who takes a woman's spot on the podium has affected not just that woman but all those below her who are pushed further from potential success.

    But another problem is the notion that only elite sports like those leading to scholarships matter, and that it's fine in lower-level sports for women and girls to be pushed out by mediocre males. It's not. Women only get to elite level by climbing the rungs from those lower levels, so if they are discouraged by knowing they can never win against a male competitor, they're more likely to drop out altogether and never make it to elite level in the first place.

    (I know this is not what you're saying, but it's frequent among those who love to take the "both sides are as bad as each other" moral-superiority stance, so I wanted to point out why it's not a compromise at all.)



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    I agree, there is absolutely no compromise.

    Either you have "women's sport" or you do not.

    People who argue that women's sport should not exist unless biological males are included, are — by sheer definition — misogynistic. It's to argue that women are somehow lesser than men; that they should never qualify to have their own category unless biological males are included.

    How utterly repellent is that argument.

    What I'm alarmed by is that 15-20% of the population think that belief is acceptable to foist upon everyone else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭Enduro


    I could not agree with you more. Indeed I have made the very same point myself many times in this thread when some user (usually with absolutely no understanding of sports) comes in and says that because a transwoman doesn't win every event they enter then all is OK. As we agree, that's complete nonsense. It's actually elitist nonsense, often perpetuated by people who probably think that they are anti-elitist.

    In sports, every single person, no matter the level at which level they compete, should be entitled to fair treatment under the rules.

    Sports are a zero-sum game. Every result which is attained unfairly pushes down everyone behind them in the results. If a male sex athlete were to come last an Olympic final they would have deprived a female sex athlete of the opportunity to compete in the final, and deprived another female sex athlete of a chance to compete in the Olympics, and deprived another female sex athlete of a chance to compete in the Olympic qualifying event, and so on and on. A long chain of unfairness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭Enduro


    What I'm alarmed by is that 15-20% of the population think that belief is acceptable to foist upon everyone else.

    I know where you're coming from there. Any opinion polls I've seen (which are mostly online polls, so aren't that useful really) are generally more than 95% against allowing transwomen to compete in the female category. I think the likely explanation is that it is explained by the population being polled. A poll of people with a big interest and understanding of sports in general is likely to poll more strongly against allowing transwomen to compete in the female category than a poll of the general population (Because their desire to be inclusive and kind will not be offset by an understanding of how the unfairness to female sex athletes deeply undermines the whole ethos of fair sporting competition)



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,375 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    In my experience, a massive proportion of the population still don't understand many fundamental aspects of the question. Many for instance imagine that a "trans woman" will have had - or be preparing to have - genital surgery. They generally assume that these are same sex attracted males who wish to become the "woman" in a relationship with a man. In other words they have no idea that many so-called trans women have male genitalia, continue to have "straight" sex with women - and have no intention of changing any of that.

    Also in my experience, as women, in particular, learn how naive their vision was, they are often quite shocked. That's why it's so important to talk about it (and why Stonewall's "No Debate" tactic was so clever).



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,996 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,996 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    https://apnews.com/article/swimming-transgender-rules-lia-thomas-8a626b5e7f7eafe5088b643c4d804c56

    The Court of Arbitration for Sport has ruled against Lia Thomas. Ruling that Thomas should not be allowed to swim against female swimmers.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    Thats not quite what the ruling states, WA had already ruled transgender atheltes had to swim in an open category, lia was appealing the ruling to CAS which decided lia had no standing to bring the case as she is not a member of usa swimming.

    While it is understood that World Aquatics was prepared to argue the merits of the scientific evidence at Cas, the hearing solely focused on whether Thomas, who is no longer a member of USA swimming, was allowed to challenge its rules.

    On Wednesday it ruled that Thomas had no standing to sue World Aquatics’ transgender policy, with a key paragraph stating: “The panel concludes that since the Athlete is not entitled to participate in ‘Elite Event’ within the meaning of USA Swimming Policy, let alone to compete in a WA competition, which occurs upon registration with WA prior to a competition or upon setting a performance which leads to a request for registration as WA world record, she is simply not entitled to engage with eligibility to compete in WA competitions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,205 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    transgenderism in sport depends on the cancel culture threat of non -personing. its the only thing I see that explains most women and girls cheering it on, fake consensus. a version of the king with no clothes

    if men had to run against robots and drones, it would be laughed out of court so quickly

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,220 ✭✭✭plodder


    Transgender/non-binary athlete, Nikki Hiltz qualifies for US women's olympic team at 1500m. Hiltz goes by they/them pronouns, but is biologically female and though transgender, hasn't taken any masculinizing medication.

    So, they qualify for the women's team, which is all fine. You wonder what does transgender even mean in cases like this? If you reject your birth gender, then why do you want to compete in that category? In any case, it goes to show that sports bodies are right to focus on sex for their categories, rather than the fuzzier concept of gender.

    https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5614255/2024/07/03/nikki-hiltz-transgender-nonbinary-runner-olympics/



  • Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭Gamergurll


    Attention seeking, I couldn't tell you the names of other competitors but hers will be widely publicised for 'trans' reasons. Though no doubt that is a transphobic comment. At least completing in birth sex category which is all anyone really wants, who cares what you call yourself as long as you are competing fairly 🤷🏻



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,375 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    The female athletes, whether nonbinary or trans, generally seem to choose to remain in their sex category. Which is sensible of them of course, and as long as their testosterone levels are normal for women, I have no problem with that.

    Oddly though, this is exactly how you get male posters busily virtue-signalling over on the UK politics thread about how silly women like JK Rowling are to be "obsessed" with trans women in female categories when she "doesn't care" about trans men (also mostly in female categories!) Instead of realising that this is because JKR and other women do not "hate" trans people, as they are saying, they have decided that this is because she does hate trans people but is just too stupid to understand that trans men are also trans.

    I don't know how much point there is in even trying to explain. You can bring a horse to water, but when his desire to virtue signal is greater than his thirst…



  • Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭Gamergurll


    I'm sure a cynic could argue that the reason the women stay in their sex based category could be because against men they have no chance of competing fairly and making it any way near the top, no matter what testosterone they may be taking, but no, theres no way that the men have a biological advantage over the woman in any way, is there?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,634 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Attention seeking, I couldn't tell you the names of other competitors but hers will be widely publicised for 'trans' reasons.

    You're showing a complete lack of understanding of elite-level sports, and as a result, frankly, you're talking rubbish in the above quote.

    The amount of time, effort, dedication (and natural talent) that it takes to win a race at that level is phenomenal, with the chances of getting the rewards being very very far from being high. Nobody goes through the thousands and thousands of hours of training, day after day, month after month, year after year, just for "attention seeking". They are in that race because they have given over a huge proportion of their life to being a top class athlete and competing at the highest level. Not to seek attention.

    Fair dues to them. They are doing exactly what I'd hope to see all athletes doing. They compete in the category corresponding to their biological sex, without their gender identity having any influence on which category they compete in.

    It appears they also ran a superb gutsy race and showed great tactical skill. Bravo all around. I hope they get tons of attention, because their performance in that race absolutely merits it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,972 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Is there a non binary category? If non binary they are not going to go with either make or female so no matter what they will compete in a category they don't entirely align with.

    Overall there is a discussion to be had around trans athletes in sports however it has certainly been made into a far bigger one than it actually is. It is by far not the biggest issue in women's sports and many people are jumping on the bandwagon to be able to have a go at trans people instead of any real interest in the issue itself.

    Even the title here shows little understanding of the issue and Katie Ledecky took a barrage of hatred when this story came out because idiots jumped to conclusions about her background as her picture was used (as the most successful swimmer in the meet).

    Overall sports seem to be veering towards scientifically backed conclusions over time in spite of a lot of the vitriol and hatred this has become a vehicle for. I don't think they will get it



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,375 ✭✭✭volchitsa




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  • Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭Gamergurll


    What, I never said it was attention seeking as the reason to play elite at sports so I'm not sure what that rant is about? I was replying to the poster asking why they identify as trans but make zero effort to live as trans, which is attention seeking in my opinion.



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