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Scottish independence

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    #3542
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,700 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269289#Comment_122269289

    Is it populism or politics to push the envelope of truth to get your opinion across to a hostile audience by using your own facts?

    Economics is largely misunderstood by the majority of any audience even an audience of economists. Look at the variation of economic theory proposed (and implemented) over the last 75 years.

    The universal problem is that economic theory is adjusted to suit the now problem. Whether it is inflation, trading difficulty, low productivity, it usually is, basically, just shortage of money. So, they lie to disguise it.



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    #3543
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,726 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269377#Comment_122269377

    There's a difference between spinning the truth and outright deception. England is by far Scotland's most important trading partner. An independent Scotland would have to go through the full EU membership process and even then it will be significantly poorer.

    I feel like your comment about economic theory is a bit silly. Most people are concerned about the economy and their jobs more than one ideology or another.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #3544
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,700 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Keynes came out with a new theory - deficit spending.

    It allowed Gov to spend money it did not have - which allowed the great depression to end. But it only worked while the Gov could borrow money which was OK until they could not. This gave rise to the various economic crashes, like the various devaluations of the GB£. [In 1945, the GB£ was worth US$4 - just for reference - today it is worth US$1.26.]

    Then, we had the rise of the monetarists as a counter to Keynes. And so on - economic orthodoxy after orthodoxy.

    Job security can be banjaxed by economic idiocy.

    In the 2008 crash, the Irish Gov was forced to fire sale assets and caused massive unemployment, plus huge debt. In Covid, they did not do that. Why was that? Was it a different economic theory?



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    #3545
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,726 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269513#Comment_122269513

    Where is the connection to Scottish independence? Is this just whataboutery?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #3546
    combat14
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭combat14


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269408#Comment_122269408

    im sure the eu would sort something for Scotland as they never voted to leave in the first place



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    #3547
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,726 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269543#Comment_122269543

    The EU is a rules-based organisation. Scotland will have to meet its rules and go through the accession talks. It should be relatively easy compared to somewhere like Serbia but it'll take years nonetheless.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #3548
    Randycove
    Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Randycove


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269035#Comment_122269035

    wasn’t that all covered off by the Smith Commission and the subsequent Scotland Act 2016?



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    #3549
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,189 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268566#Comment_122268566

    It will happen, you cannot keep denying the wish of 50%+ of the population

    Labour confirmed that GB Energy was not an energy company but an investment vehicle to pump taxpayer funds into private energy companies. It is more like the disastrous PFI schemes



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    #3550
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,189 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269940#Comment_122269940

    The Smith commission was not the same as the pledge in the vow - very much watered down by the Tories and Labour



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    #3551
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268576#Comment_122268576

    Labour are the nasty Unionist party in Scotland.

    Much more visceral hatred towards the idea of Scottish self determination and the people who are for it, nevermind the orange order ones in labour, its the rest as well.



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    #3552
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,631 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269543#Comment_122269543

    No need, Scotland could join the EFTA and be like Norway.



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    #3553
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,631 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268551#Comment_122268551

    Labour will have a large majority. The Scottish contingent can be safely ignored.

    Even if it was a small majority Scottish labour MPs would still have to follow the party line whereas the SNP could demand a higher price.



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    #3554
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,429 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Well Lb would want to be looking to their second term. The Scot Lb MPs will be very important then, better having been good to Scotland in the meantime.



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    #3555
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,631 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272046#Comment_122272046

    In 2015 the only seat the Liberals got in Scotland was Orkney and Shetland. Which they've held for most of the last 200 years.



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    #3556
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,700 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122272327#Comment_122272327

    That was Joe Grimmond's seat.



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    #3557
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Well I'd say talk of independence is dead for another while.

    In the absence of anything coming from Westminster in regards to an Indy Ref 2 the SNP put its stock in the general election as a mandate for another referendum.

    But with the massive seat loss for the SNP it's seems no one was interested, regardless of the 45% or so opinion poll support for independence



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    #3558
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,493 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    It'll be interesting to watch the polls of indy support in the coming 12 months though: if Labour do a good job for Scotland will support drop or stay steady; intellectually it'd seem like a good showing in Holyrood would weaken support but it'll also show how embedded the independent spirit is in Scotland. As I said before we shouldn't assume SNP are the mouthpieces of independence.



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    #3559
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122341908#Comment_122341908

    Until the sturgeon clique and other crown assets are removed the SNP is finished.



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    #3560
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122269946#Comment_122269946

    It is, quite clearly, not the wish of 50%+ of the population though.



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    #3561
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122341943#Comment_122341943

    I suspect rather than altering support for independence it would more affect how important they consider it.



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    #3562
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,726 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122341943#Comment_122341943

    I think the SNP are thankfully finished, by which I mean relegated to the status of a fringe party on a national level for the next decade or so.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122342075#Comment_122342075

    Independence only really makes sense in relation to living standards. Scotland has always been a very willing participant in the union, unlike Ireland. If Labour govern well, expect support for independence to erode. Time will tell.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #3563
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,196 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122342191#Comment_122342191

    If Labour govern well, expect support for independence to erode

    A major point of independence is to rejoin the EU. In hindsight the EU didn't do many favours at the time of indieref by backing the tories. With that being said if Labour make some good trade deals with the EU they will clean up in 2029



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    #3564
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,726 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122354751#Comment_122354751

    Anyone voting for independence to rejoin the EU without concrete assurances from the EU is in for a rude awakening. Labour have already stated that they intend to work with the EU to improve things.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #3565
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122354751#Comment_122354751

    In hindsight the EU didn't do many favours at the time of indieref by backing the tories

    The tories and Labour you mean, as both were supporting a No vote in 2014.

    Bodies like the EU like stability.

    An EU member state (the UK) breaking up is not something they would endorse, thus their lack of support for independence.



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    #3566
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,196 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355489#Comment_122355489

    Yes the Tories and Labour were both advocating remain [in the UK] but the Tories were advocating for Scotland to remain and subsequently for the UK to leave the EU. The EU should have thought ahead and stayed as neutral as possible.



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    #3567
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,726 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355533#Comment_122355533

    No. The UK was a member state at the time. The pledge to hold the Brexit referendum came 2 years after IndyRef. It made sense for the EU to try and help the UK given it was a member.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #3568
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    For obvious reasons the EU will never express support for the breakup of any state, and certainly not of a member state. Anyone who expects otherwise is delusional, and any political campaign that depends on the EU doing so is insane.

    The process for an independent Scotland (or independent anyone else) to join the EU is well-known both in theory (it's set out in the Treaties) and in practice (many states have already been through the process and others are going through it at the moment; we know what it looks like).



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    #3569
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355533#Comment_122355533

    The Tories did not advocate for the UK to leave the EU.

    It was not official policy, some supported Leave, some Remain.

    You remind me of Nicola Sturgeon, pointing at "the tories" all the time.



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    #3570
    rock22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭rock22


    @Fr Tod Umptious "Bodies like the EU like stability.

    An EU member state (the UK) breaking up is not something they would endorse, thus their lack of support for independence."

    I think the Scottish referendum was held at the same time as the illegal ballot in Catalunya . Spain ensured that the Eu took a stronger position than they might have.

    However I think Scotland would have had a relatively easy passage into the EU, less than ten years and possibly around by five as it , at that time, was already a member as part of the UK.

    If the referendum had been successful, it would be unprecedented, given the resulting break up of the UK, for the EU to automatically continue membership for one part, England Wales and NI, and deny membership to the other, Scotland. This is all moot now of course, Scotland would be applying as a third country.

    The difficulty for the independence supporters in Scotland is that neither they nor anyone else can guarantee that Scotland would be better off, economically, as an independent country. And it seems the population of Scotland want such a guarantee.



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    #3571
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,726 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357343#Comment_122357343

    This isn't really true though. Official party policy might have been remain but that's utterly meaningless when most prominent figures were staunch leave advocates and were platformed accordingly in the tabloid press.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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