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SA vs Ireland First Test 2024 - The World Champions vs The Best Team in the World

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,336 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Yeah I don't buy the argument that Kelleher didn't know what he was doing there - you always know where you're feet are and where the ball is in those situations. "He wasn't looking" isn't an excuse for a stamp on somebody in a ruck and I don't think it's an excuse here either.

    Still 100% a neck roll on Kelleher though which should override all as an act of foul play.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭xpletiv


    Lifelong Springbok supporter incoming ;)

    Savage match yesterday. Boks were powerful. Some mistakes on both sides and a bit of extra luck for SA. Work rate for boks was through the roof, and just always kept Ireland on the back foot. Kriel was immense. Despite his mistake, Lowe was outstanding as well, the bad ball back in and his try were both quite unlucky.


    And how quickly Irelands Zombie has been taken by SA fans for Rassie :D

    Saw some 'classless' comments about SA crowd during incident - do you not think this is the right call and way to do it? Poor guy is getting attention on the field. TV does not want to have to draw attention to it. So crowd are riled up to distract from the event on field, give commentators something else to talk about... I think they did it the right way. It does not mean any disrespect and Casey was clapped off as well and cheered when he raised the hand. I get your point but I think the alternative is silence that makes the situation more morbid and more uncomfortable for everyone, and Casey probably thinking 'everyone's eyes are on me'. The party atmosphere was kept alive and made for excellent atmosphere for the rest of the match.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    He's not trying to spoil there though - quite the opposite. We've gotten them in a difficult position and we're trying to effect a turnover so we can attack quickly.

    The repeated assurances that "he knew what he was doing" is just conjecture from people who genuinely can't know whether he did or he didn't. It's more than reasonable to assume he absolutely didn't because he's not facing the ball, he's got one guy swinging out of his neck and another playing his leg at the same time, so the notion that he's so composed during all of this to effect a neat little measured back heel is a stretch for me.

    But, as I said - the ref is right there and staring straight into the ruck at the time it happens. He sees the ball come back and obviously judges it a rugby incident, and incidental contact from Kelleher's boot as he was being (illegally cleared out). That the TMO came back to that ruck and missed obvious SA infringements to highlight that incredibly marginal call against Kelleher as a means to overturn a try is ridiculous - especially given how little he flagged all during the game of late clear outs and clear outs way past the ball all through the game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    No, I genuinely don't think it's the "right way to do it". There is a world of sensible enough middle ground between hyping up the crowd to create a party atmosphere and the "morbid, uncomfortable" silence you described, and the fans in the stands should know how to behave without needing some guy on a tannoy telling them what to do.

    That sort of incident unfortunately happens in rugby grounds all over the world from time to time, and I've never seen a reaction like Saturday. When I watched the game back, I imagined watching that whole sequence as a member of his family potentially and how enraging it would be to see the crowd behaving in an absolutely oblivious fashion to a guy who is obviously quite seriously hurt. It, along with the SA players high-fiving Snyman from the hit, were all what I would call as classless.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I didn't care for the crowd thing, but I also think it's cultural and I'm just going to write it off as one of those things I don't understand.

    TV does not want to have to draw attention to it.

    This, however, is the exact opposite of what the TV did. They focused on Casey on a close shot for far too long and that's pretty indefensible.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,503 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Whatever about the balance of decisions going our way, or not, I don't think the way we "manage" refs is helping us. Or ele we're just a moany bunch of whiners.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    This is all based on how Sexton worked with refs, Sexton did stick up for his team mates. I remember one SA team came out and 2-3 high tackles on Leinster players. At least one off the pitch and Sexton rightly had words with the ref. More or less saying it is Sexton responsibility as captain for the safety of the players. He was 100% right

    Yet in the media and RTE they complained about his talking to the ref.

    We didn't get the rub of the green but mostly with the TMO and not the actual ref. So that wasn't down to the players on the pitch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,466 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Pearce, rightly or wrongly was visibly annoyed with how Doris was interacting with him. He spoke to Doris at least twice to tell him he wasn't happy with it.

    Maybe Doris was annoyed at the TMO but Pearce had enough of him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    His annoyance after the Casey incident wasn't with Doris, it was the fact that Doris, the captain, was the third player to approach Pearce on the issue.

    Pearce also has no business "having enough of him" - Pearce was the one who came across badly on Saturday, losing his patience multiple times. Every single one of the incidents Doris highlighted to him were incidents where Ireland were legitimately entitled to seek a review, most especially the Doris try under the posts that Pearce clearly got wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    The match was a killer. Brilliant to watch. Great atmosphere and full of drama. I hope the next match is as good.

    I would assume that Snyman has contacted Casey after the match. They were team mates and are likely friends.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭boetstark


    🥱🥱🥱🤧🤧🤧😅😅😅.

    Do some munster or irish fans ever stop moaning. Even Doris was at it.

    Caseys hands still in contact with the ball. Fair tackle but a pity his head hit a rock hard surface. Get over it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭jammiedodgers


    TV does not want to have to draw attention to it.

    Probably shouldn't have zoomed in on the player while he was unconscious then.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    The way Kolbe hopped off the ground grounding his try, it must have been like a rock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Lovely, flat inside pass, hard decoy line and late strike runner.

    Should be an outhalf, inside centre and full back…..but was a tighthead, loosehead and hooker.

    Not enough being made of just how good this try was.

    Bealham is about to release a flat pass in the above image. He took it right to the gain line (getting smashed as he released it as per below), the defender coming across bites on Healy and Kelleher absolutely bursts his lungs to get flat and takes it with outstretched arms at full pace.

    Front row membership revoked for all three.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,336 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    I don't know what I'm more offended by - your insinuation that Irish fans love moaning or your insinuation that Avalynn Hundreds Lumberyard is a Munster fan!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,605 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    One of the best tries we've scored in recent memory. Solid summation of the match in your earlier post, this match had shades of the QF, we played a lot of good rugby but had far to many errors. I know it won't happen, but I'd love to see Frawley get a game at 12, where he's best imo. Ringrose or Osborne at 13. We're missing that 2nd phase distributor that Hansen and Keenan provide.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 704 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    Who's moaning ?.

    Anyone (including officials) who walks onto a pitch can make a mistake & it's reasonable to assume that player errors get as much post match attention as their moments of outstanding play. It follows that if we are not to highlight errors in the officials performances (for the good of the game) we shouldn't critique player performances either.

    But the TMO doesn't step onto the pitch & has the advantage (which the Ref & ARs don't) of multiple angles & slow motion replays. Irrespective of the result of any match, it is reasonable for the performance of the officials to be critiqued.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Just because a SA player had poor game from the tee doesn't excuse an Irish player having an even poorer performance from the tee. Even then, Pollard scored double the points and a higher % of his kicks than Crowley.

    Ireland lost by seven and Crowley left seven points out there from missed kicks - it clearly cost us. Even taking your usual circling the wagons approach to certain players, not sure how even you can justify taking umbrage with someone pointing Crowley's poor performance from the tee.

    Not calling for Crowley to be dropped or anything but a 40% success rate as a kicker is atrocious. Simply isn't acceptable for an international level 10.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Zaylee Little Tungsten


    You can forgive a touchline conversion but one of the kicks in particular was absolutely awful as well, right in front of the posts. He missed 7 points worth of kicks in a game we lost by 7, but hey, he plays for Munster so it doesn't count!

    Mod: Trolling.

    Post edited by aloooof on


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Kamila Echoing Ringleader


    Ah yes munster...the team with the inside track on irish rugby 😂



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 163 ✭✭The Macho Man


    At no point during Casey's time on the ground or on the stretcher did RG come over and check on him. Every game has late hits etc. and we accept its part of the game but as in Soccer you'll always see the offending player come over just as a show of respect and courtesy. If your own players can't show respect on the pitch, well, don't be surprised if we complain.

    RG sticking the head into him on the ground, doesn't look good mate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Agree with the first part - though are we 100% sure he didn't go over at any stage? We didn't have a constant feed of Casey during the whole time he was down and going off.

    The additional contact after they hit the ground is incredibly minor though. Snyman could have no idea he was knocked out at that point when he did it and keeping the opposition 9 down for a few extra seconds is standard. You see that kind of stuff dozens of times a game. If Casey wasn't unconscious no one would even mention it - which is common to the whole reaction to the incident.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Kamila Echoing Ringleader


    I think the rg tackle has been blown out of proportion because casey got injured. It was a dog shot but thwt kind of thing will always be a part of any contract sport and its not intentionally injuring anyone. I



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,175 ✭✭✭Augme


    Ite clear and obvious he knew where the ball was and its clear and obvious his foot moves towards the ball. His foot is dragged along the floor and he makes no effort to lift his foot to avoid striking the ball. Again, all of these things point to it being an intentional movement.

    It does stand up to scrutiny. The video is clear for all to see.

    He doesn't need eyes in his ankles when the ball is touching his leg. Hence the reason he dragged his foot along the floor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 704 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    I don't follow. How does he know where the ball is so that he can consciously move his leg towards it ?. It does not seem 'clear' that his movement is deliberate. You can believe that it was, but no one other than the player himself can say with any clarity what he was consciously trying to do. Your opinion of what he was trying to do is just that, an opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭gneel


    The whole sequence of Casey getting injured is so frustrating. Snyman plays the 9 whilst in the ruck, then follows through causing the injury when Casey has already passed the ball. The scrum leads to a SA penalty which leads to Kolbe's amazing opportunist try. Should have been a penalty to Ireland under their posts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    And, insult to injury, to play it out, he awards SA a scrum, they get a penalty at the scrum, kick it to touch, and it's the one where Lowe keeps the ball alive and the others are switched off and Kolbe swoops in for an easy try.

    All from a lineout in their 22 after Casey's great 50-22. It's an infuriating sequence.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Given the utter litany of mistakes made, it would be an absurd stretch to claim Crowley's kicking cost us the game. However, it is also clearly a potential issue that has reared its head a few times and denying that is just a bit silly. He has no competitor for the jersey and he is otherwise playing decently, but he need to work on it.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I’d agree 100% with this, tbh. His goal kicking is an area that I’m full convinced will improve. But there’s no way it cost us the game or will cost him his place, given everything else.

    Some of the takes on this thread are just removed from reality, imo. I just don’t see any world where Prendergast starts ahead of him next week. Or where Crowley and Casey are “AIL level”.

    It’s just difficult to have a reasonable argument on here at the moment imo.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,466 ✭✭✭✭phog


    More so, when Pollard left 9 points to Crowley's 7 but a few posters don't want to recognise that fact.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    This is not relevant to whether Crowley's kicking was an issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,336 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Doak and Dave Heffernan called up for Casey and Sheahan.

    Is Tom Stewart injured or has he fallen down the rankings?



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    The day Prendergast puts in the defensive shift Crowley did on Saturday (and most times he plays) I'll start seriously considering him a potential international.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I mean, he may never do and still be an international. We don't have a Sexton level player, it is all going to be give and take in the position for the foreseeable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Hard to know from those end of season games - you don't tend to get an injury report. He played the last game of their season (came off the bench for 12 mins or so). He didn't have a stellar year IMO and slipped further behind Herring I think (after having a brilliant 22/23 season).

    Still a bit surprised to see Heffernan called back in, but given it's really only for scrummaging in training and in the event of a last min injury, it may just have been the case that Heffernan was more readily available to get on a plane. Pure speculation on my part.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Do I think Crowley should be changed for this match? no

    I did respond earlier when someone mentioned about swapping him for Frawley then why wouldn't you put in Predergast because I don't see Frawley as a 10. Maybe that kicked this all off but it was not saying to swap out Crowley

    Was Crowley kicking poor? yes

    Was it an issue on the game? yes but then again this first bad miss ended up in the following plays in a try but he still needs to improve

    Is it a good excuse to say it didn't matter because the opposition 10 missed? no it's ridiculous. In the last games v SA Ireland won becuase we had the ability to knock over our kicks and SA didn't.

    A lot of people rave about Pollard who seems to love kicking in the WC, between that he can have some really dodgy days, on those days the opposition 10 needs to take their kicks and hopefully win the game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,466 ✭✭✭✭phog


    No and I thought it was obvious I was referring to posters that claim his kicking cost us. He left 7 points behind but the posters want to ignore that Pollard left 9 points behind him.

    If both teams kicked all their points we'd have lost by 9 points not 7



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Did anyone say he 'cost us the game'?

    What I and the other poster quoted said 'it cost us', no one mentioned the game.

    A kicking success rate of 40% would cost most teams on the road against the world champions.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    His kicking did cost us. It didnt cost us the game but it was one of a litany of things that contributed. Pollard's success rate is completely irrelevant to that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,466 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Ah here, that's jumping through hoops trying to be right.

    In the overall scheme of the result of the game the missed kicks had zero bearing on the result.

    But look, it's now turned into point scoring on this thread so I'm out.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,711 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    You must be the unluckiest poster on the forum to always be the one caught up in these ‘point scoring arguments’ 😂

    I think it’s fair to say Crowley needs to work on his kicking from the tee but I’ve no doubt he’ll develop it in time. Another aspect where he’s been caught out on a couple of occasions is his fringe defence. He’s been caught out against England, for the first SA try where he needed to stay out or take man and ball on Kolisi and he also had a bad miss against Northampton. All part of the learning process.

    I think he’s done very well since coming into the team and doesn’t go into his shell even when things don’t go to plan which is why I’m sure he’ll continue to improve.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    What does Prendergast's defense have to do with Crowley's poor kicking from the tee?

    Crowley's kicking was far from international standard at the weekend but this is top tier deflection.

    There is currently no meaningful clamour to start Prendergast this weekend. Some people need to get back used to their starting 10 also being the starter for Ireland. Factual statements on days when they kick poorly are part of it and it is in no way a call to circle the wagons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    It really is a great trait for a young player.

    Was great to see Osbourne do similar, when a few things didn't go right for him early he could have fallen apart, instead he kept at it and grew into the game silencing a lot of people who questioned his selection.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    In the overall scheme of the result of a game we lost by 7 points, 7 missed points from the tee had zero bearing on the result?

    I am not lambasting the guy, but you are being ridiculous in the extreme. It was absolutely one of a number of factors that contributed to the defeat and it is utter blindness to his faults to think otherwise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,757 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    You can want Crowley to start this weekend and also think he shouldn't be missing kicks in front of the posts



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Kamila Echoing Ringleader


    Crowley had one egregious miss. Touchline conversions are what they are. He was fine in general play a lot of our backs getting harsh reviews off of a tough platform for me particularly lowe who bar the one error at the end had a really good game



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,175 ✭✭✭Augme


    The ball hits his leg so he knows the ball is next to his leg. He knows that when his leg sweeps towards the ball he will make contact with the ball. Given refs will never be able to read a players minds it's their job to make decisions with the information that is available.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,109 ✭✭✭SaoPaulo41






    Owen Doyle: Ireland-South Africa match officials unlikely to enjoy performance reviews after poor day

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... -poor-day/



    “Ground control to Major Tom, you’re off your course, direction’s wrong.”

    For some odd, or maybe obvious, reason David Bowie’s lyrics came to mind as Ben Whitehouse called in, or didn’t, from his TMO command centre to referee Luke Pearce.

    Let’s look at the Craig Casey incident when, strangely, there was no call from Whitehouse. Casey was in possession as recent Munster team-mate RG Snyman came past the ruck, probably offside too. He first tried to impede Casey’s pass by targeting his arm. He failed, the ball was gone when he proceeded to tackle the scrumhalf, driving him backwards and into the ground where his head smacked violently on the turf. Casey was knocked out cold, it was a sickening moment of grave concern.

    It was a late tackle off the ball, and pretty high too. It demanded a review, but there was only silence from the TMO. As recently as last week, this column emphasised that there are very dangerous tackles where there is no direct collision with the head, and this was one. Given the head contact protocols, the outcome may well have been excused as “a rugby incident,” a term I always find bordering on ludicrous.

    But, here we are again, tethered by protocols, and not guided by the laws of the game. There is also something in the equation called a duty of care, which the tackler certainly didn’t seem overly worried about. It was 131kg driving needlessly into 76kg, clearly dangerous, and there is no greater proof of that than the outcome. I am very willing to take any brickbats of disagreement, and there’ll probably be plenty, I’d guess, from South Africa.

    But such a tackle, which can result in a very serious brain injury, merits a lot more than “play on”, There have to be consequences. I don’t believe that the TMO should be the final arbiter of such player actions, involving serious injury. It has to be the ref’s call.

    Neither can I comprehend how Pearce, watching Casey receive prolonged treatment, didn’t want to see for himself. Caelan Doris certainly wanted him to, but instead he told the player off, albeit politely.

    Whitehouse did call up Pearce, to deny James Lowe a try, after a wondrous run down the touchline. Hawk-eyed, the TMO had spotted a potential offence by Ronan Kelleher in a ruck, seconds before. The hooker had gone to ground, the ball striking his foot before emerging on Ireland’s side. Pearce had a direct view of it, and had not whistled it. That’s the crux of the matter – it was a referee decision in a ruck, not for the TMO. However, what he should have picked up was the neck roll on Kelleher which helped put him on the deck in the first place. Ireland would then, at least, have had a penalty, which instead went the other way.

    Lowe mixed the good with the bad. His successful attempt to keep the ball in play, with no idea of who was behind him, was unwise. The risk-reward balance was unfavourably skewed, quite the opposite of his sumptuous offload for Jamie Osborne’s score. It led directly to Kolbe’s try, although it took a lengthy study to decide that Lowe was no longer in possession before his foot was on the ground in touch.

    There is a another consideration here. The law states that the ball is in touch if it, or the ball carrier, touches the touchline or anything beyond. Having released the ball, the question is, if it then hit Lowe’s thigh, does that qualify as “anything beyond” the touchline. There’ll be mixed views on it, with the only opinion which counted – Whitehouse’s – ruling that there was nothing clear and obvious for Pearce to overturn his on-field “try” decision.

    Lowe was also involved in the correctly awarded penalty try for South Africa. Playing the ball deep in Ireland’s in-goal, uncharacteristically he fumbled it; Pearce awarded the inevitable five-metre scrum. The “bomb squad” had arrived en masse, just in time to play a mere 30 minutes of an 80-minute match, which raises again serious safety concerns. They did their business, completely splintering the Ireland pack, with Kelleher singled out for a yellow card.

    There was more TMO involvement when the referee was persuaded by Doris to look at his grounding of the ball for a possible try in the second half. One camera angle showed the ball to be short of the line, and that was enough for Whitehouse to rule it out. But there was another angle which seemed to show a clear, if very brief, grounding. Ireland will have a big query on this one, among many others.

    Doris and Pearce had an interesting relationship throughout the afternoon, with the Irishman getting under the ref’s skin at times. That’s not really a great idea, but, at times, it was hard to blame him. Assistant Rob Dickson, in charge next Saturday, will have taken good note of the exchanges. The match officials are unlikely to enjoy their performance reviews. They had a poor day, in what was a thunderously ferocious contest.

    In addition to World Rugby’s specialist review group on the red card replacement, there are two additional groups working away. One is studying the whole matter of TMO involvement; the other on the question of replacements, aka “bomb squads”.

    The groups are due to come up with recommendations for adoption by World Rugby’s council, in November. That meeting cannot come soon enough, both have evolved into something which was never intended. They are in real Major Tom territory – completely off course



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Still digging away here at the same point.

    Your point of view on this isn't credible - you yourself never mentioned you felt it was deliberate and intentional contact with the ball until it was pointed out to you it had to be to be considered a penalty.

    Now you've pivoted it all into your convoluted argument that you believe he deliberately hit the ball.

    You've ignored and refused to engage with the following points: (i) that the referee is staring right into that ruck from a few yards away, with a completely unimpeded view, and doesn't consider this a penalty at the time, (ii) that the TMO neglected to go back to review incidents of foul play at preceding rucks all throughout the game, despite there being a multitude of examples, (iii) the fact that it's absolutely a reasonable argument that the two players clearing Kelleher out at the time (one blatantly illegally) could have had any impact at all on his foot coming into contact with the ball.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 704 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    from your previous post

    'Ite clear and obvious he knew where the ball was and its clear and obvious his foot moves towards the ball.'

    now

    'The ball hits his leg'

    Hmm …



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