Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Energy infrastructure

Options
1177178179181183

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 835 ✭✭✭omicron


    Basically greenwashing by the EPA. Importing fossil fuel generated electricity from the UK and counting it as a reduction in CO2.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,936 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Although that is definitely a contributory factor, 9.5% of electricity being imported, could not alone account for a 21.6% reduction in CO2 emissions. Maybe the mild winter accounted for the other 12%? There wasn't a lot of additional wind capacity rolled out in 2023 afair.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,716 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Except the UK grid is cleaner then Irelands! So if we import from the UK, that electricity is less polluting then Irish generation.

    Ireland: 291 gCO2
    UK: 238 gCO2

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/carbon-intensity-electricity



  • Registered Users Posts: 835 ✭✭✭omicron


    Only if we only import at times of excess renewable generation in the UK, which is not the case at the moment. So at best were importing the average of their generations carbon emissions, or at worst you could say we're importing whatever their marginal generation is, likely gas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭gjim


    Your claim that we're importing electricity that the UK is generating by burning gas is simply wrong.

    The cost of gas generation is dominated by fuel costs and there is spare gas generation capacity in Ireland. We import when the wholesale price in the UK is lower than our marginal cost of generation - minus the transport cost of the electricity. This arbitrage opportunity occurs when UK wholesale prices are low - i.e. when they have excess renewables - NOT when they have to fire up a bunch of gas turbines. When UK prices are high and our renewables are not delivering enough, we turn on our spare gas capacity.

    So as long as even 1% of the electricity we import from the UK is carbon-free, then it's a win to import instead of firing up Irish gas turbines - it's both cheaper for Ireland AND better for the environment.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 835 ✭✭✭omicron


    So why did we go from being a net exporter to a net importer when the only change that has occurred is the UK leaving the EU emissions trading scheme? Because it's cheaper for them to burn gas than it is for us as they don't have to pay the same for carbon credits.

    There has been no drastic change in the fuel mix in Ireland or the UK in the last 2 years but we have gone from being a net exporter predominantly on windy days to constant imports, even to the point where on windy days last winter wind was being curtailed here while importing at full tilt from the UK.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,936 ✭✭✭✭josip


    I presume it's the additional demand due to data centres, but don't have any figures to back that up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,036 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Data centres are projected to nearly double Ireland's electricity usage in the next decade. If it's allowed to happen we will never meet our emissions targets.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,716 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    There has been a drastic change in the grid in the last 2 years, we can now support 75% renewables on the grid versus just 45% two years ago!

    That meant that two years ago, when we were generating lots of wind power, we had to export it or else curtail it. With the higher limit now, when the wind is blowing we can make use of it here rather than exporting it.

    This has been possible due to the installation of a synchronous condenser at Moneypoint, the addition of 750MW worth of battery storage installed over the past 18 months and other changes on the grid.

    Basically we don’t need to export the wind power anymore, we can just use it ourselves. However going forward as we build out more renewables that might flip again and we may become a net exporter again, though tempered by the fact that the ESB are working towards increasing that non synchronous limit from 75% to 95%

    There is a lot of work going on in the grid behind the scenes that many aren’t aware of.

    There is no weird conspiracy here, just a lack of knowledge. Our grid is getting cleaner every year as we add renewables, batteries, condensers etc. and importing from the UK is no conspiracy either, UK wholesale price is just cheaper then Ireland (bigger market) and their grid is cleaner then ours.

    BTW also the UK is also a net importer of electricity from mainland Europe, some 10% of their electricity is imported. Ireland imported 9%, so really you can say we are indirectly importing from mainland Europe.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,691 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    We will be able to import directly from France once the Celtic Interconnector is on stream.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭KrisW1001




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,641 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    There is a lot of work going on in the grid behind the scenes that many aren’t aware of.

    Yup, I don't think we'll ever get to 100% renewable but we'll get very close to it. Ireland is unusually placed near the top of the average wind speeds across the world. Wind power makes total sense.

    I think direct drive systems will be here en-mass soon (I think they some in Galway somewhere). The gearbox turbines maintenance costs are to high (but on the overall scale with maintenance costs, wind is still cheaper), they'll be phased out over time. As you mention, most people wouldn't be aware of these type of turbines.

    Nor would they be aware of the worlds largest flywheel being operated here since 2023 (Grid stabilisation tech)

    There's a heap of work going on behinds scenes.

    Wind is free, Ireland will be leader in wind energy tech in the future. (same as France being Nuclear, Iceland Geothermal, North Africa Solar, etc). You use what you have.

    We could even see smelting plants similar to Rio Tinto Straumsvik as well as many more data centres opening here because of the abundance of wind energy available to us.




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Last year the UK got 49 TWh from offshore wind. Over a sixth of their total generation. And they are still throwing them up.

    And like us they at times will have to export or curtail wind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,936 ✭✭✭✭josip


    UK has a lot more suitable locations for shallow offshore than we he have though.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,716 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    While they have more, we have plenty too, but we haven’t even started building any yet, other than the one from 20 years ago!

    BTW the UK has 6 interconnectors to Europe and they are connected to countries with even lower grid emissions. Norway, mostly hydro and some wind, France mostly Nuclear, Belgium 50% Nuclear, Denmark 50% wind, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭Birdnuts




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,936 ✭✭✭✭josip


    If we have plenty of shallow offshore suitable for fixed wind, why are we planning for floating offshore off the Clare coast? I dont think we have as much shallow offshore (<50m) depth as people (want to) think.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/uhxECEJyhH9rXWjz6



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,641 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Coal is $102 per Ton
    Oil is $85 per Barrel
    Wind is Free, it's available to every that wishes to invest in exploiting it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,716 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Because we aren't!

    ORESS 1 auctions was won by 4 projects, 3 on the East coast around Dublin and one on the West coast. The West coast one is the smallest at 450MW, while the 3 East coast ones add up to 2,624 MW.

    The Sceirde Rocks Offshore Wind Farm on the West coast is fixed bottom, not floating!

    Going forward the government is creating something called Designated Maritime Area Plan (DMAP), areas where they want to focus ORE development. The first one is in the South East, but the next one is expected to be on the East coast.

    Behind the scenes there has been a bit of a battle if ORE projects should be developer lead or government lead. Companies wanted to be the ones to decide where projects go and that included some floating offshore projects on the West coast, in the past few months the government has basically come back and said that is a stupid idea, that instead the next projects will be planning/govermnet lead.

    Basically the government has very much decided to prioritise fixed bottom offshore wind projects in the areas they deem most useful to us.

    You can read all about it here:
    https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/0566b-future-framework-for-offshore-renewable-energy/

    BTW according to the above government report, we have 62GW worth of fixed bottom offshore wind resource capacity. Yes, there is obviously even more floating offshore potential at 579GW, however the fixed bottom is the low hanging fruit that we will do first.

    Obviously even 62GW is WAY beyond our grids needs, which currently maxes out at about 6GW, to put this in perspective.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Ireland will be leader in wind energy tech in the future.

    This is fairly unrealistic - it would require a significant directed state investment not just in wind farms but in turbine manufacturing specifically which is unlikely to arrive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,463 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Wind is free , its the "capture" and conversion to electricity that costs,

    But then again so is oil and gas , its the extraction and transport that costs , and the arbitrage -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    I think you'll find its the consumer who gets smashed with the "Wind is Free" nonsense when it comes to power prices



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Why is the government committing bill payers money to projects that haven't even applied for planning yet?? and which are likely to seriously impinge on MPA's in the Irish Sea??



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,826 ✭✭✭SeanW


    The "fuel" may be free, but it's disparate (low density), unreliable and thus expensive to capture and of limited use. Same with solar. That's why there's nearly a perfect correlation between a country's embrace of this stuff and energy costs.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,716 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Wind has one of the lowest Total Cost of Ownership (TCO), only solar beats it. Gas plants have a similar TCO to wind. Coal has a TCO roughly 4 to 5 times higher then wind/gas and new Nuclear multiple times higher again.

    They won the ORESS auction, that doesn't mean to have gotten any more from the government, ORESS will only pay out once they are built and running.

    As for MPA's errr… you know that these areas specifically allow for offshore wind and in fact the Wind Energy group is actually looking for the government to roll out the MPA legislation faster so they can get started on building those wind farms.

    https://www.renews.biz/94463/ireland-urged-to-prioritise-marine-law/

    "Director of external affairs at Wind Energy Ireland Justin Moran added: “Our members are committed to the sustainable development of offshore wind energy in a way that protects, and even enhances, our marine biodiversity.

    “The Marine Protected Areas Bill is central to Ireland’s sustainable energy future and we want a commitment from the Government that this will be a priority when the Dail meets again in September.”"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,545 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Great table.

    One thing, isn't the Lysaghtstown Solar Farm earmarked to be 131MW? The table shows it to be only 87MW.

    Lastly, is there any table or data on solar farms either granted planning or under construction, a timeline on forward capacity?



  • Registered Users Posts: 835 ✭✭✭omicron


    Lysaghtstown isn't completed, presumably only 87MW is connected.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭gjim


    Oriel Offshore Wind project is applying for PP directly with ABP for 375MW without bothering with ORESS.

    Backed by JERA, one of the biggest electricity generation groups in the world, who presumably know what they are doing.

    They will compete head-to-head with both fossil-fuel based generation and renewable projects operating under the various contract-for-difference schemes with zero subsidies and zero government investment required.

    This demonstrates clearly how the sector has been revolutionised by new technology. In a fair fight, gloves off and no advantages given to any particular generator, modern renewables - wind power in this case - beat all legacy generation technology in terms of competitive pricing.

    At this stage the government could drop the whole ORESS thing and wind/solar would still dominate any new investment. It might be worth it just to shut up the constant bleating about "government money" going to renewables.

    In fact the effect of the ORESS scheme is to reduce volatility of electricity prices for investors, not to provide undeserved profits. The PSO refund subtracted from you electricity bill came out of the pockets of the wind generators - when wholesale prices are higher than the auction strike price, they must pay the balance back and when prices are under, they get the subsidy.



Advertisement