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Biden v Trump (and one or two others) The US Presidential election 2024. Read OP before posting

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    #962
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,790 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362210#Comment_122362210

    Yes, I think it is quite reasonable to ask where there is a pattern of posts as to why that poster is going to bat for racists. You have clarified you despise Trump. But it is very obvious when that is not done, when obvious questions are dodged, that instead we have a different agenda in play.

    There's no logical leap, you are being deceived by Trump's weasel words and dog whistling.

    Where does he actually condemn any of the white supremacists and neo nazis who were actually at the rally?

    He doesn't.

    Take a step back and look at the pattern of Trump's behaviour.

    Look at the Proud Boy's comment.

    Look at the racist vomit about "polluting our blood."

    That is the language of white supremacists and neo nazis.

    Do you really think such a racist was actually condemning the white supremacists at the rally?

    Nope, he was using weasel words to tell them they were fine people.

    There is no hoax. Trump was calling neo nazis and white supremacists fine people, because that is who was at the rally.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #963
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,686 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362247#Comment_122362247

    can be summed up like this, Trump saying they should “totally be condemned” (sure) while letting them know they’re “very fine people”

    (that so called condemnation came days later in case people forgot)

    https://youtu.be/Abh9SXPkixw?si=K0XesIkjDOIMMCZL

    his Nazi base got the message:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2017/8/16/far-right-lauds-trump-amid-charlottesville-backlash



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    #964
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    This is the transcript. Take from it what you will.

    TRUMP: ... you had some very bad people in that group,
    but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You
    had people in that group ... that were there to protest the taking down
    of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park
    from Robert E. Lee to another name.

    REPORTER: George Washington and Robert E. Lee are not the same.

    TRUMP: George Washington was a slave owner. So will George Washington
    now lose his status? Are we going to take down statues to George
    Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas
    Jefferson? You like him?

    REPORTER: I do love Thomas Jefferson.

    TRUMP: Okay, good. Are we going to take down the statue? Because he
    was a major slave owner. Now, are we going to take down his statue? So
    you know what, it's fine. You're changing history. You're changing
    culture. And you had people—and I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and
    the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally—but you
    had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white
    nationalists.



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    #965
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,686 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362470#Comment_122362470

    yes we take that he was appeasing his Nazi base.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2017/8/16/far-right-lauds-trump-amid-charlottesville-backlash



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    #966
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,790 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362470#Comment_122362470

    The racists did take from it what they will, and they took it that Trump was calling them fine people.

    Which is the point of him using weasel words and dog whistling to racists.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #967
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362480#Comment_122362480

    What did you take from it?



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    #968
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362478#Comment_122362478

    By saying they should be totally condemned? Why would he say that if he was trying to appease them?



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    #969
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,790 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362491#Comment_122362491

    That he was dog whistling his approval to the racists at the march, that they were fine people.

    We see the same pattern with the Proud Boys.

    And Project 2025.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #970
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362502#Comment_122362502

    That's your genuine take from reading the words he said?



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    #971
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    He says they should be totally condemned, but you guys say he was saying that to appease them.

    This is peak "You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place."

    Anyways it's old news and people have their minds made up about it years ago.



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    #972
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,790 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362519#Comment_122362519

    Where does he actually condemn them?

    Why, does Trump go on about fine people and good people when:

    For the record, virtually every source that covered the Unite the Right debacle concluded that it was conceived of, led by and attended by white supremacists, and that therefore Trump's characterization was wrong. 

    Trump was telling the people at the rally they were fine people. With enough weasel words that anybody who attended that really heard fine people and didn't bother with the small print that came out later.

    Why were the far right lauding Trump after the event?

    https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2017/8/16/far-right-lauds-trump-amid-charlottesville-backlash

    Yeah, it is "peak" denial to what was going on at the rally alright and how Trump was dog whistling to them.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #973
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    He condemns them by saying they should be condemned. He said there were fine people under the assumption that not everyone was a white supremacist and some were just protesting the statue stuff.

    This is basic stuff. He said the words. He condemned the white supremacists. Their reaction afterwards or them taking it as a dog whistle doesn't matter in relation to what he actually said.

    Quote the part where he said they were fine people and quote the part where he condemns them white supremacists.



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    #974
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,686 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362498#Comment_122362498

    ”I should apologize” isn’t an apology, how is “they should be condemned” a condemnation?

    He sure said they “should” be totally condemned but has since spent 7 years totally not doing that.



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    #975
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362597#Comment_122362597

    Well if you're going to nitpick "should", why don't you nitpick him clearly stating that he wasn't including the white supremacists when he was saying there were very fine people on both sides?

    You cannot impartially read what he said and conclude he was calling white supremacists very fine people when he said they should be condemned and specifically said he wasn't including them as very fine people.



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    #976
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,686 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362691#Comment_122362691

    except the only ones there (the supposed other fine people) were all white supremacists.

    we can keep this up for 4 months let’s really remind people what his last term was like. It’s no hoax to say he called Nazis and white supremacists very fine people. They got the message.



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    #977
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    Besides, there are other quotes from before the very fine people statement.

    "we condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides."

    "anyone who acted criminally in this weekend's racist violence, you will be held fully accountable."[295] and that "[r]acism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name
    are criminals and thugs, including the K.K.K., neo-Nazis, white
    supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we
    hold dear as Americans."



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    #978
    eightieschewbaccy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362594#Comment_122362594

    Thing is, the way it was phrased for plenty of racists to conclude that they were the fine people in the crowd... Cause realistically, nobody in that crowd is a fine person if they're willing to march with outright racists and Nazis.



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    #979
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362723#Comment_122362723

    Well then if there were zero normal protesters and all were white supremacists, that makes him factually wrong or mistaken. It doesn't mean that his exclusion of white supremacists in saying very fine people somehow means he included them. It means there were only fine people on one side.

    This is basic logic and I'm sorry to say but if you can't see it, it's purely political.



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    #980
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362748#Comment_122362748

    The way it was phrased is irrelevant when it is clear he excluded the white supremacists when he said there were fine people on both sides.

    He wasn't there. It's completely reasonable to assume there were normal protesters who weren't white supremacists and were only there about the statue.

    The conversation is about whether or not he said the white supremacists were very fine people and the quotes clearly demonstrate he didn't.



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    #981
    eightieschewbaccy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362766#Comment_122362766

    If you're willing to march with a large group of Nazis and white supremacists, you're by default not a fine person whatever way you try to frame it. I don't think I know any decent person who would attend such a march.



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    #982
    Quango Unchained
    Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭Quango Unchained


    "Black"

    "White"

    "It's black"

    "It's white"

    "No it's black"

    "No it's white"

    "Very black"

    "Very white"

    "Very very black"

    "Very very white"

    Anyway. A make or break moment for Biden at tomorrow's NATO press conference. Newsnight on BBC said this is his first proper ("big boy") press conference in over 2 years - or it could even have been longer. Incredible.



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    #983
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362811#Comment_122362811

    If you take that as fact, then it still doesn't mean he called white supremacists very fine people. It just means he was wrong in assuming there were normal protesters.

    It's clear from his quotes over multiple days that he condemns the racism and violence on that day and doesn't include white supremacists in his group of "very fine people".

    This is far beyond logic and quotes at this stage. People have spent years believing he said something when the quotes are completely at odds with it.

    I think we should draw a line under this because no one is changing their minds.



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    #984
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,686 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362838#Comment_122362838

    he’s spent years enabling white supremacists.

    Dinner with Nick Fuentes etc.

    “Proud boy’s stand back and stand by”

    Acting like his mealy mouth efforts to appease journalists was actual repudiation of his Nazi base is utterly laughable.



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    #985
    eightieschewbaccy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362852#Comment_122362852

    They're fine white supremacists though.



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    #986
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,686 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362862#Comment_122362862

    makes you wonder about people who are fine with trumps record of appeazement of white supremacists and neo Nazis



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    #987
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,635 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The trouble with this type of argument is that unless Trump actually says an explicitly racist thing, he'll always be defended as not explicitly being a racist. The weight and combination of everything he has said, implied and done will be dismissed because "Well in this exact speech he doesn't actually say something racist".



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    #988
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362852#Comment_122362852

    This is my problem with "the left". Trump is a scumbag, but the left has decried fake news etc. for nearly a decade now, while just being so completely and utterly into it as long as it goes along with the overall narrative or their sense of truth.

    False statements are just repeated nonstop and all it does is weaken your position. This is why nothing sticks on Trump and then you're shocked. You cannot be caught out on a load of things like this but expect voters to believe the ones that are actually true.

    Trump didn't say Mexicans are rapists and, in regards to Charlottesville at least, say white supremacists are fine people. These are facts and the lies around those statements turn people off and they just assume everything is lies.



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    #989
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,372 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122362141#Comment_122362141

    I'm not sure I'm understanding the point of this post. That many Haley supporters would vote for Biden over Trump has been known for ages.



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    #990
    sock.rocker*
    Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭sock.rocker*


    My opinions on American politics largely formed around loving Bernie and then seeing him demonised by the left, with basically all of my close American friends hating him even now and loving Hillary.

    I think America repeatedly gets the president it deserves and this election is showing the system is broken. Biden is in my mind incredibly ineffective and I hate him for a bunch of reasons including Gaza. Trump appeals to base emotions and fears of immigration, which are valid in my mind in pretty much every Western country. If Trump gets in because of a weak Biden, then America again gets what it deserves because the DNC cannot put forward good candidates.



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    #991
    duploelabs
    Registered Users Posts: 11,339 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    Anyone remember this from the not-racist trump

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/nyregion/central-park-five-trump.html



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