Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

In a sporting environment…yes, the only thing that matters is performance, which in turn equals results.

That’s only reiterating what Hamsterchops said already? It wasn’t true then and simply repeating it doesn’t make it any more true than it wasn’t already.

If identity is what really matters for people who compete in sports (never have I heard such nonsense), they can do that elsewhere.

And they can do it in sports too, they have been, for some time now, or do you imagine competitive rivalries based on identity are not a thing in sports?

When males compete against females, it is not about identity, it is about the biological advantages they carry over the rest of the competition.

Says you, other people disagree with your opinion. Male and female are identities in themselves, so the idea that identities in sports is nonsense clearly just isn’t borne out by reality.

If they are focused on identity, then why not do it against the same sex? Might it be because they wouldn't have those advantages over the same sex?

They do? There’s plenty of intense competition in sports between members of the same sex, could be based on another identity which has nothing to do with biology like their national identity. You’re very clearly mistaken if you imagine that sex is the only identity that matters in sports.

Funding the development of women’s sports has never come at the expense of funding the development of men’s sports? That’s what budgets are for - to determine where and how to invest in resources and development. It’s why this image went viral as it did when the discrepancy was pointed out and the NCAA tried to defend their position, only for their position to be shown to have no merit:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/women-ncaa-tournament-allege-weight-room-disparities-n1261600

If an organisation which claims to be a non-profit organisation is focused on profitability, they might reasonably offer the excuse that because resources are finite and it’s a zero-sum game, this justifies the lack of investment in women’s sports, and be exposed for that too:

https://www.npr.org/2021/10/27/1049530975/ncaa-spends-more-on-mens-sports-report-reveals#:~:text=Hourly%20News-,The%20NCAA%20spends%20more%20on%20men's%20sports%20than%20women's%2C%20says,in%20the%202018%2D19%20season.

I don’t remember saying that taking part is the only thing that matters? You made the point that in a sporting environment the only thing that matters is performance, which in turn equals results. I countered your statement by pointing out that while that is true as far as you’re concerned, for many other people who aren’t you, it simply isn’t true. Talking to as many athletes as we could won’t change that fact, nor will ignoring the fact that world class athletes have already expressed opinions to the contrary, let alone the numbers of athletes who will never make it to world class or Olympic level competitions or enjoy massive sponsorship opportunities.

It’s an obvious point to make that sports rivalries wouldn’t exist without sports, but your point was that they could express their identities elsewhere, and I was making the point that they do already, and they do it in sports too. There’s no impediment to them doing so other than the rules of the competition which prohibit athletes using the event to promote their political or religious views (regularly ignored by the athletes themselves).

I’ve not ignored the physiological differences between male and female bodies at all, nor am I ignoring the reality of the physiological differences between individual athletes which endow them with advantages over their competition. It’s but one single factor among numerous factors in determining fairness in sports. It’s why categories and classes exist, and rules exist for the safety of the athletes both on and off the field, or track, or court, or whatever the case may be.

Dogmatic beliefs aren’t weird either, you’re equally adept at ignoring facts which don’t suit you. Nothing whatsoever weird about that.

You are essentially redefining the whole point of sport, which is competition, against other athletes, to win. Please provide some evidence about these world class athletes who have expressed opinion to the contrary. Any top level athlete worth their salt competes to win, you saying otherwise or trying to claim that is pretty laughable.

I’ve not attempted to redefine anything. You are though by adding in all sorts of criteria that weren’t there before, like an athlete worth their salt is an entirely subjective metric based entirely upon your own standards, and your original claim was that performance is what matters, so I don’t know whether by your definition he’s worth his salt or not, but Noah Lyles has his eye on more than just winning competitions -

“Whether the time is fast or not, it doesn’t matter because they know when they come to a track event I’m at, it’s going to be electric.”

https://olympics.com/en/news/noah-lyles-exclusive-on-how-he-wants-to-reinvent-track-field-i-m-unlimited

He does have a point, to be fair 😂

This point makes no sense at all. Are you claiming that trans athletes need their sport for their identity? Considering that most of this thread has been able biological males using female sports to make their point, seems pretty evident that they are craving the attention on that front. I am sure the biological advantage they have has no bearing at all in their endeavours…no, not at all.

Well that’s what they claim, and without any evidence to the contrary, all you’re doing is engaging in supposition and speculation based upon your own beliefs. There’s a word for that kind of belief 🤨

Oh now, don't try drag me into your game of ignoring science. You have provided no facts, nor have you actually ever acknowledged that males are more powerful, stronger etc than females. Ever. Provide some scientific peer reviewed studies, and then get back to me. 😀

Well generally speaking they are, but that has little to do with whether or not transgender athletes as individuals have any advantage or none over their competitors which is why a blanket ban cannot be justified. Scientific peer reviewed studies aren’t going to tell you much, other than the few that exist are too small-scale be considered of any use whatsoever precisely because of the sparsity of people who are transgender in any given population, let alone those who are athletes who make up an even smaller percentage again of that number. That’s not ignoring science btw, I’m saying that the science just isn’t there, because of the lack of volunteers willing to submit themselves to be studied for the purposes of supporting a ban on their inclusion in sports.

Adults are free to make their own decisions and if an adult male wishes to take medication or surgery to make them feel female, why shouldn't they?

Children under 16 are not allowed make medical decisions for themselves, so I wouldn't allow anyone under 16 to take medication or surgery.

Funding the development of women’s sports has never come at the expense of funding the development of men’s sports?

Of course not. Why are you quoting the opposite of my point back at me in the form of a question?

That’s what budgets are for - to determine where and how to invest in resources and development.

Exactly. Budgets are a zero sum game. If you want to give more to Peter (or women), you have to take it away from Paul (men) or else increase the budget. That's what Title IX was supposed to achieve.

By the way, that report from the NCAA is completely mad. They let men compete against women, but they don't allow them to use the same gym. How do they justify that? It's nuts.

Do you want women who wish to have an abortion be allowed to have surgery/medication to remove the healthy body parts/baby that they hate on the grounds of personal choice, or should we consider that they have a mental health issue and try to treat that first, before considering abortion? That is the approach you are proposing for Gender Dysphoria.

Let adults do what they want to do and stop interfering with them.

I have set out clearly where I see the lines on this subject. Males can be men or women, females can be men or women, but males cannot be females and females cannot be males. There is a subset of issues that can only be arbited on the grounds of sex - participation in sport, access to certain medical treatments based on sex and safe spaces for females (including prisons). All other issues can be decided on gender.

That is the common sense approach, leaving aside the poisonous ideologies on both sides of this debate.

If you read my posts, you will see that I agree.

A baby is not a "healthy body part" though. That's a whole other ethical question, and one that I don't think is relevant here (but for the record, I see no inconsistency in being prochoice with my points about anorexia or gender dysphoria. If you can't see why I'm happy to explain why either by PM or on a relevant thread).

To get back to the actual issue though, could you say whether or not you think Gender Dysphoria is similar to other conditions where a person is unhappy with their healthy body, such as anorexia or BID?

If not, why not, or if so, should we also help those people to adjust their bodies to look more like how they want them to? And who should pay - the adult concerned, or the taxpayer? (Cos if so, well personally I really need a small facelift to remove those horrible lines that make me look more like my physiological age and not like the 21 year old that I really am in my own mind. I think society should pay to help me feel so much better about myself.)

A baby is more than a "healthy body part". What you are saying is that it is ok for a female with free choice to kill another human being (incidentally I am also pro-choice) yet it is not ok for a male to have his penis removed. In the case of the latter, according to you, he should receive treatment for mental health issues first.

Should a male who wants a vasectomy for personal reasons also be treated for mental health issues? Or a female who wants to take the contraceptive pill or HRT? Why is it acceptable to get hormonal treatment for menopause without being subject to your requirement for mental health treatment but not for gender dysphoria?

I agree with this. What though is “gender” in this definition other than a collection of stereotypes?

I agree regarding language and I think we're not too far apart in views generally.

To my mind though "gender" is a collection of very outdated stereotypes - and if it was left up to individuals to live their own life, calling themselves whatever they wanted then all well and good - work away; but sport runs by physicality - not how you feel, and "woman" is not an identity to have it is an actual thing, an "adult human female" - and to see males like Lia Thomas, Fallon Fox, CeCe Telfer etc etc cheating in the same exact way as Ben Johnson, Lance Armstrong and Michelle de Bruin have it just wrong.

and to see males like Lia Thomas, Fallon Fox, CeCe Telfer etc etc
cheating in the same exact way as Ben Johnson, Lance Armstrong and
Michelle de Bruin have it just wrong.

Sorry, but that is not correct. Those transgender athletes are not cheating if the rules allow them to compete. The druggies were cheating as they were breaking the rules. Those two sets of circumstances are not comparable.

It's the rules that are the problem there. The males being allowed to compete in the female category is an outcome of rules that either need to be tightened up, or are deliberately designed to allow this unfair competition by design.

Thankfully we are seeing an increasing number of sports governing bodies who are tightening up their rules to ensure that these categories are sex-based with suitable eligibility criteria.

I would respectfully disagree - Johnson et al knew he could not compete fairly so took steroids.

William Thomas knew he couldn't compete fairly so took oestrgen. Going from 542nd best against men to 1st against women is no coincidence.

My late father ran the 100 yard dash as it was then in school in the 1940s in 11 seconds. The current women's world record is 10.5 seconds and no one has got near it in nearly 40 years - and that athlete had questions about doping.

That's adding an unnecessary abstraction. Just simplify these concepts and language. Male=Man, Female=Woman.
There's nothing preventing a member of one sex presenting as the opposite sex. A man can be "feminine" in his personality and manner, just as much as a woman can be masculine, indeed a "tomboy".

But to ask the rest of us to change our language and to except these ideological concepts that someone can change their sex, that's a bridge too far.