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Energy infrastructure

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    ESB Networks announced today that they've reached 100,000 microgeneration connections in the Republic. Almost all of these are solar panels.

    From this, they estimate the installed capacity at 400 MW, which sounds a little high: most urban installs I see are around 3 kW (8 panels), but then I don't know any rural homeowner with less than 5 kW (13/14 panels), so maybe it all works out on average.

    20% of that total was connected in the last six months, and at the current rate of 750 new connections per week, we should have 1 GW of domestic rooftop solar in about four years.

    It's not useful to think of domestic solar as "generation", because so much of it is self-consumed, but what it does do is flatten daytime demand: the midday system power demand in the Republic of Ireland is between 4,000 and 5,000 MW, so on a sunny day the current 400 MW on roofs will have a significant impact on generation demand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭SeanW


    If that is true, then why is there nearly a direct-line correlation between the embrace of these technologies and the cost of energy?

    Across the world, the most expensive electricity is in 1) Denmark and 2) Germany.

    https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-electricity-by-country

    And in the US, California has the highest energy costs of any state in the Lower 48. (Only Hawaii has higher energy costs).

    https://www.chooseenergy.com/electricity-rates-by-state/

    Despite these costs, the California power grid is so neglected and so likely to start forest fires that US mobile phone service companies have to give rolling warnings of where you might not have phone service because of constant power shut-offs.

    https://www.t-mobile.com/customers/california-network-impact-report



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I notice you ignore countries like Norway and Portugal which have cheap prices and lots of wind and hydro power!

    So there is your “direct-line correlation” right out the window.

    To be honest, the links you give are pretty useless, those are consumer prices, consumer prices can differ radically between countries based on things like different taxes, different charges, different subsidies and include grid and connection costs can vary wildly.

    Also direct comparisons are pretty useless without taking into account average wages and GDP. I mean I’d rather be paying 33c living in Ireland on an Irish wage than paying 20c living in Brazil on a Brazilian wage!

    And of course it isn’t surprising that richer countries will have higher costs as the employees of the electricity companies are better paid and of course it will be more expensive to build new power plants in richer countries as construction staff etc. are better paid.

    I mean the site you link to literally says that:

    whether it is high-, middle-, or low-income, the price of electricity can vary widely from one country to the next.

    The site also points out the following:

    Electricity prices may also be influenced by world events, particularly if those events impact the price of fossil fuels such as coal and natural gas, which are often burned by power plants to generate electricity. Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine disrupted the export of fossil fuels from both Russia and Ukraine, causing a spike in the price of electricity (and many other products) throughout the world, and Europe in particular.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I know for a fact that Norway does not rely on wind turbines, or solar power. They can power themselves fully using hydropower, which does give them the ability to act like a giant battery for some of their neighbours. Norway, along with Iceland (which uses a combination of hydroelectricity and geothermal power) are among the few countries in the world that have large scale, cheap, dispatchable renewables. Sweden has a lot as well, but they have supplement it with nuclear in the South.

    Countries such as Sweden, France and Finland have much more reasonable energy costs than those of Ireland, Germany, Denmark et. al. That cannot be a co-incidence.

    I'm not so familiar with Portugal, but I suspect their climate has a strong bearing on things.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Siemens supplied the transformers for China's 3,284 Km long 12GW transmission line. Which means if the price differential is large enough you can justify importing from far away.

    Have a look at the auctions for solar in Portugal.

    Then have a look at the floating solar auctions in Portugal.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭SeanW


    That's nice for China but it doesn't explain very much. As for Portugal, it has a lot more hydropower capability than we do (Hydropower 4GW and Pumped Hydro about 2GW). It's also 1000km to the South of us and given their climate they don't really have to worry about winter.

    https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/PT

    So I'm not sure that Portugal is any better of an example than Norway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    So essentially MPA's don't offer any protection from damaging developments on key seabird and pelagic fish spawning sites?? Seems to be at odds with their original function as sited by concerned NGO's like BWI,Fair Seas etc. Was in Howth in recently for a tour of Irelands Eye, tour guide and crew said big opposition locally against the windfarm planned for Kish, sighting damage to nearby seabird colonies, fisheries and tourist trade etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    test



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,722 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Your last paragraph is obvious nonsense given the extent Irish Consumers have been price gouged for too long now and where we sit on the league table of EU energy prices!!🙄



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Spain approving floating solar in reservoirs , they reduce algal blooms

    maximum percentage of total surface area covered is limited to 5% in the
    case of non-eutrophic reservoirs, and to 15% in the case of eutrophic
    reservoirs or at risk of eutrophication,

    15% of Lough Neagh is nearly 60Km2 or about 4GW

    Ireland's first wind farm was connected in 1992 but it was not until
    2009 that 1GW of wind energy was on the grid. Solar hit the 1GW
    milestone in just two years.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,020 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Just a couple of short remarks about German consumer electricity prices from a resident:

    There is no German electricity price. Every region has a different network operator and they all apply different network operating charges. Electricity is cheaper in Berlin than surrounding Brandenburg, for example.

    Almost all the low voltage network is underground. It's rare to see houses supplied with overhead cables. Recently our street needed an upgrade. A new cable was laid from the nearest transformer along ca. 400m of street. This all had to be put underground.

    There has been a real cost of integrating more wind into the network. Within Germany there are significant disagreements about wind energy and who should pay for the network upgrades required to tap the resource. In northern and eastern Germany there is significantly more wind available. Here in Brandenburg we are a net exporter but have the highest network operating charges in the country because of the significant expense of equipping the grid for wind power.

    In Bavaria where they are much more against wind farms, they get to use electricity from northern Germany and because locally no network upgrades were required, they don't pay as much for it as we do, where it's produced. The federal government aims to end this regional disparity and force regions like Bavaria to pay more so wind producing regions can pay less. That law is currently moving through the Bundestag.

    Sure, the adoption of wind has caused our electricity prices to rise but these are one off costs. The network will eventually be fully upgraded and "wind friendly" and these costs will fall back again.

    I see a generational increase in electricity prices as being acceptable given it will allow the grid to go carbon neutral for future generations of our species. We're only custodians of the planet during our time on it.

    Do I think it was a mistake to start shutting down perfectly functioning nuclear plants in Germany long before they were life expired? Hell yes. It was Merkel's biggest error. A knee jerk reaction to Fukushima. Would I wish to see a return to nuclear? No, I believe with things like mega-flywheels we can keep the synchronicity in the grid using renewables only.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'm not so familiar with Portugal, but I suspect their climate has a strong bearing on things.

    LMAO, yeah I wonder if their climate might have lots of wind as they face the Atlantic !

    And yep, loads of wind, along with some solar, hydro and biofuels.

    Actually they have the third highest share of wind energy in Europe, after Denmark and Ireland.

    In the past few months they have been running on 95% renewables and yet they also have cheap prices, imagine that!

    Finland, there experience building a new Nuclear plant was so great that they have cancelled two other planned Nuclear power plants and instead have said all future new capacity will be renewables!

    Sweden, yes, they get 30% of their power from Nuclear, but over 60% from renewables, which yes of course includes hydro, but also wind and solar at quickly increasing rates.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    If you want to compare prices for generation you have to compare wholesale prices. There's a ten fold difference between the cost of electricity, for at least one supplier, on one price plan, at different times of the day.

    If you want to compare prices to those from fossil fuel you have to predict future carbon credits or carbon sequesterion costs. Drax charges £8 Bn for 20TWh of electricity with low emissions. But only if you consider 3 Megatonnes of CO2 low emissions now and are OK with future subsidies for £31.7 Bn for carbon storage.

    France got 46.87 TWh from hydro in 1965, by 1970, 56.96 TWh. It increased a bit to 58.8 TWh in 2023. Hydro is very cheap when most of the costs were incurred over half a century ago.

    Between 2022 and 203 French wind produced 11.9 TWh more and solar 3.1 TWh more.

    That's a total increase of 15 TWh in one year. An average of 4.16 GW extra. (or 3 x 1.5 GW running at 92% capacity factor)

    France is yet another country where gas replaced coal and oil, and is now being replaced by renewables.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,794 ✭✭✭Apogee


    My guess for Lysaghtstown is they are doing it in phases (i.e. partial) and will update the MEC as each stage comes online.

    You'll also see that the current MEC for Tullabeg at 50MW above is below that reported elsewhere e.g.

    As for what's in pipeline, the same Eirdgrid page in previous URL lists the non-wind TSO generators. Otherwise, have a look at the successful bidders in RESS1, RESS2 and RESS3. For example, Gillinstown is listed there under RESS1.

    Lysaghtstown flyover (May 2024)

    Post edited by Apogee on


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭SeanW


    They are also 1000km to the South, have no winters to speak of, have about 8GW of dispatchable hydro (between conventional dams and hydro storage) and Lisbon has literally twice the sunshine hours of Cork. Oh and they also regularly import electricity from Spain, which has nuclear power.

    I would suggest that Portugal, much like Norway or Iceland, has it on "easy mode"



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Spain stopped approving new nuclear plants a long, long time ago. In June 1984, the Congress of Deputies approved the 1983 National Energy Plan (PEN-83) All seven of the existing plants have shutdown dates between 2027 and 2035.

    Spain's power sources Another country where coal has more or less been phased out early (was 15% in 2019). There was an 28% increase in installed solar last year.

    While Spain is 1,000 Km to the south of us, the UK already has interconnectors to Denmark and Norway that are near enough the distance from the UK to Spain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    But there's a big difference in seabed depths in the North Sea vs the Bay of Biscay. It's a lot easier to pull cables when your boat nearly touches the bottom compared to depths of 3km or more and moving floors due to seismic activity.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Indeed it's a lot easier with a detour. And they are cheating by using a land section to bypass a submarine canyon.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    While all true, worth noting that the continental shelf is quite wide along the French coast and along there it is quite shallow too, not far off the North Sea. Any UK or Irish interconnector would use this route along the continental shelf and not go through the center of the Bay itself, so it wouldn’t be that bad.

    The Spanish and French are planning to build a subsea interconnector between both in the Bay over the next few years.

    And yes, there has been some talk of a potential Ireland - Spain interconnector too, though likely far in the future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    I'm not sure what continental shelf you are talking about but the France-Spain interconnector is fraught with difficulties, so much so that they're keeping as much as possible on land, because the seabed is so difficult. There's a reason why the Spanish are opposing the Xlinks scheme from Britain to Morocco - the corridor around France and Spain is so narrow that it barely has capability for one interconnector and they don't want the British sterilising their route options.

    If you look at the map below, the water gets really deep really fast beside the Pyrenees and above Northern Spain.

    And no, there's no talk of an Ireland - Spain interconnector apart from Ciarán Cuffe's wishful thinking and him forcing DECC to include it in the 2023 Policy on Interconnection, much to the bemusement of Red Electrica d'Espana and the Spanish government who promptly said No thanks.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    You were saying that the bay is 3km deep, which of course is true, I’m pointing out that the continental shelf which extends 150km of the French coast is only between 100m to 250m deep.

    You can clearly see it in the light blue section in the above picture you posted. This is the area where you would run an interconnector from Ireland/UK to Spain, along this 100m to 250m deep section, to the immediate West of France.

    I readily admit that the capbreton canyon is a challenge. However the original UK plan was to basically connect with the France - Spain interconnector that is being built that you show above. I suppose strictly speaking it was connecting to the edge of France, but the goal was to tap into the Spanish grid.

    Brexit pretty much killed this plan, but now Ireland might take the UK’s spot in this plan. The EU may give a great deal of support to it, they want to better connect the island grids of Ireland and the Iberian peninsula to the rest of the EU. They see it as of strategic importance.

    So it is challenging, but far from impossible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,641 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I've explained this already. The state rarely build power plants anymore. It's all private or semi private.

    You all need to get this idea out of your heads that Minister is gonna come along with a blank cheque for someone to build energy infra.

    There's been nearly 50 wind farms completed in the last 10 years. Nordex and Siemens are the main manufacturers

    True, we pay someone else to capture it though, plus it's not as clean as wind or solar.

    We will need Gas and Oil but only as a backup to wind and solar.

    it wouldn't matter how it was generated, you'd still be paying the same price. Remember, before any energy generation infra is built, investors have all the electricity is will make sold at a set price before a shovel is even put in the ground, thats just how it works.

    It's not 100% reliable I agree and as I've already mentioned, until we have a mechanism to store excess energy we will need Fossil fuels as a backup. The energy costs now have NOTHING to do with a plant that was constructed X years ago. Energy resellers are just ripping people off because they can.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    There's been nearly 50 wind farms completed in the last 10 years. Nordex and Siemens are the main manufacturers

    Exactly, and neither of those are Irish companies nor do they do much manufacturing in Ireland. It's primarily done on the continent, in Mexico, Brazil, Asia etc. The idea that Ireland is or will be a leader in wind tech when the majority is imported just shows how stupid the statement was.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,641 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    You've the wrong end of the stick.
    Ireland (Dublin) is of of the biggest IT Hubs in Europe, we don't manufacture computers here, yeah Intel have a plant here but that's it. It's all run here though. Lots of the DC's, lots of the jobs etc.

    Same applies to Wind Power. We don't manufacture the equipment, but we do and will run a massive amount of it.

    Just to be absolutely clear, the idea of being completely insular and isolated (IE we only use the stuff we manufacture ourselves) is what kept Ireland as the sick child (economically speaking) in Europe post WW2.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Firstly, IT and semiconductors (Intel) are two totally distinct industries.

    Ireland does have a decent semiconductor industry where large amounts of R&D are concentrated here. Even though most chips are made in Taiwan and Korea, Irish arms of MNCs still design large amounts.

    The same cannot be said for wind turbines - we do not design, we do not manufacture, all we do domestically is plan projects and tender to European giants like Siemens etc who supply and in some cases install, or else install through partner companies.

    The amount of actual value added by Irish employees, Irish arms of MNCs or Irish domestic companies is quite low. It certainly isn't value that can be exported.

    The claim that Ireland would be a leader in wind tech is nonsense. There is nothing to back up this claim. We don't design or manufacture the tech. How could we be leaders?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    That's not true at all, some Irish companies are at the absolute cutting edge of the design work, they're just not designing the individual turbines.

    Actually a big problem we're having right now isn't in the lack of opportunity, but in lack of enough engineers to capitalise on the opportunity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,641 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I'd argue on top of that, that Nordex and Siemens probably don't make most of the components.

    The certainly don't manufacture the Neodymium magnets, which are the most important part.

    They just order parts from Companies X Y and Z and put them together, even the designs are more than likely done by outside contractors.

    Being a leader in a field means leveraging the what that field offers more so than anyone else.

    The work and knowledge on building turbines will increase rapidly here as time goes on, all going to plan. Ireland is basically sitting on a gold mine when it comes to wind energy, only matched by the Mid-West in America.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,032 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Its just a shame that the ESB and the government sat on their hands for so long. We could be in a similar position to Portugal if they hadn't dragged their feet for so long. We can thank the Greens for putting a Bunsen under their bums.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,936 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Not sure if it's already been posted but Irish Energy Bot estimates renewables during Q1+Q2 accounted for 41% of electricity generation. This would be an improvement on recent years I think.



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