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Clontarf to City Centre Cycle & Bus Priority Project discussion (renamed)

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    #3152
    downtheroad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122373635#Comment_122373635

    Please outline your calculations for your proposed cycle tax. Will it be based on co2 emissions, the same as motor tax?



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    #3153
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,714 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122374104#Comment_122374104

    No invented taxes by the green ecomentalists. Soon we won't need to worry about socialism masquerading as the green rubbish.

    Pay your share of road space and we'll talk.

    In terms of tax I would say the easiest way is to put €7,000 on the purchase of any bike.



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    #3154
    Greengrass53
    Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Greengrass53


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122374148#Comment_122374148

    Please buy an electric car. Will discuss your proposals then.



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    #3155
    Disco24
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Disco24


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122374148#Comment_122374148

    Santa won't be happy carrying Eur7k bicycles around, his insurance premium will go through the roof.



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    #3156
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,523 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122373531#Comment_122373531

    Is this a comedy act?



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    #3157
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,307 ✭✭✭markpb


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122374369#Comment_122374369

    Yes, a long running one. He’s like a genie in a lamp - any time anyone talks about roads or cycle lanes, Kermit here pops up to espouse the virtues of a ten lane motorway running through Parliament street. The addition of punitive taxes on cyclists is a new and exciting addition though.



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    #3158
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,928 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    seriously, block that account, it's not worth engaging with and it will enhance your enjoyment of Boards greatly. I only see their comments because people keep replying, and it's pointless.



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    #3159
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,202 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122373656#Comment_122373656

    Is the pedestrian bridge being removed? Or will there be the bridge and another crossing point 25 metres further on?



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    #3160
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,523 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122374570#Comment_122374570

    Blocked



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    #3161
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,471 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122374856#Comment_122374856

    No idea.



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    #3162
    loco_scolo
    Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    @spurious Afaik they originally planned to remove the pedestrian bridge, but rolled back on that. Not sure why, perhaps after pushback during consultation. So there will be both crossings.



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    #3163
    LIGHTNING
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 661 CMod ✭✭✭✭LIGHTNING


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122374148#Comment_122374148

    Do not post in this thread again. Had enough of your trolling.



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    #3164
    bikeman1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    The pedestrian bridge will remain. It was overhauled a few years ago after massive pushback for it to be removed and replaced with a pedestrian crossing.

    Now the pedestrian crossing is going to be there anyway. No harm in it remaining there, I’m an impatient fecker, so I’ll still hop up over that than wait at lights.

    I would imagine when it needs any further work, the bridge will be removed.



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    #3165
    Disco24
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Disco24


    Couple of new businesses popping up in North Strand. Not perfect cycle lane by any means but I'd bet numbers using it will double so its a template for build it and they will come.

    One problem is it ends abruptly at junction of Talbot Street and Amiens Street for now. Opportunity with Talbot St revamp to build two way cycle lane to connect to Marlborough St/ O'Connell St.



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    #3166
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122378322#Comment_122378322

    They were repainting the bridge during the past week.

    BTW They appear to be starting to tarmac the cycle lane from the Malahide Road junction going outbound.

    The closure last week at Malahide Road appeared mostly to put up new traffic lights. When I say new traffic lights, I don't mean your run of the mill lights, but large, high gantry style traffic lights that are above the lanes spanning two lanes at a height higher then a double decker bus.

    They also moved around the pedestrian crossings at that junction.



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    #3167
    Disco24
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Disco24


    I like the gantry style lights.

    What I can see is the cycle getting clogged and some cyclists/ scotters using the bus lane. If they're doing 30km don't have big issue with it, reflects how narrow the lane is for passing in places.



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    #3168
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,202 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122378492#Comment_122378492

    Would it not have made more sense in the first place to avoid Amiens Street (and the pinch point under the bridge) and run a cycle lane up Killarney St and Sean McDermott Street to Marlborough Street and the river? I still don't understand why the cycle lane HAD to follow the existing bus routes. It's done now, I realise, but there were quite probably a lot less disruptive routes.

    Where on the North Strand are the new businesses? Do you mean the hair/nail salon (beside the closed cycle shop)?



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    #3169
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,771 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122379311#Comment_122379311

    Why on earth would they route a cycle lane zig-zagging off the main route for?

    There's no way i'd personally cycle through those streets and would continue on the direct route/road into the city.



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    #3170
    Disco24
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Disco24


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122379311#Comment_122379311

    No idea names I'll have a look next time.

    Also no idea why you'd take that route on a bike, send cars up there instead.



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    #3171
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    So I did a super geeky thing over the weekend, I went out and measured some of the cycle paths! No not with a tape measure, but with the Lidar measuring app on the iPhone, so easy to do.

    Anyway, most of the new cycle lane is just 1.75m which IMO is far too narrow for a busy path, and downright scary as you constantly meet people coming the wrong way on the path! Some parts are 2m which is okay, but most seems like just 1.75m

    I then measured the old two way path from Clontarf to Bull Island that has been there for decades and it is a very comfortable 3m, plenty of space to over take a slower cyclists when no one is oncoming.

    The new section between Bull Island and Howth changes between 2.5m which is okay, but feels a bit tight and a luxurious 3.5m, that seriously feels like oceans of space.

    Alfie Bryne Road, the old two way path is a very comfortable 3.5m and the new section from East Point towards East Wall is a luxurious 4m!

    I honestly don't know why we went backwards on this new cycle path when we had already built very comfortable two way paths for decades!

    I've no fundamental objection to one way paths if they are built to a high quality standard and wide. At least 2m, but ideally 2.5m. But if all the space you had was 1.75m each side, wouldn't it have made more sense to build a really nice space 3.5m two way path instead. 3.5m is loads of space and feels like it, no problems overtaking etc. and it takes up the same space (actually slightly less with buffers) then two 1.75m one way paths!

    I know this won't change it now, but I'm putting this out there in the hope that they learn from the mistakes of this new cycle path when building newer ones like the BusConnects routes, etc.



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    #3172
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,523 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Basically it's just a way to continue prioritising cars. Footpath width and cycle lane width stipulated by various design manuals is continuously ignored in favour of turning lanes for cars.

    BusConnects designs are no different, multiple turning lanes are provided in central areas at the expense of footpaths and cycle lane width. Overall busconnects lacked some ambition but there's no denying it's an improvement on what we have currently in 90% of cases. No doubt there'll be future schemes to accommodate sky rocketing numbers of bikes and bus passengers.



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    #3173
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes I just looked at the cross sections of the Swords and Malahide Road BusConnects scheme and it is really bad!

    Mostly all one way cycle paths, with not a single section of 2.5m path on either scheme as recommended by the cycling manual!

    Swords road one is really bad, some 2m wide paths, but well over half it seems to be absolutely deplorable 1.5m wide cycle paths!!!

    What the hell, that is considered WAY below minimum for any cycling paths and worse it is mostly on the city end of the cycle paths, Drumcondra road section inbound, with lots of interactions with bus stops and shared pedestrian sections! Of course this is the section of the path that will be by far the busiest as you approach the city!

    Malahide Road scheme is a bit better as it is mostly 2m, though the section between Griffith Avenue and Clontarf with the detour off to Brian Road is laughable junk!

    Again I’m not even looking to take more space from cars. I just don’t understand if space is so limited that you can only fit a 1.5m cycle path, why wouldn’t you just use the same space to build a higher quality 3m wide two way cycle path! Same space, just better used for the cyclist.

    Specially as we know these cycle paths will be highly tidal, most people will be cycling inbound on them in the morning and outbound in the evening. Perfect for a two way cycle path. It all just seems so lazy.



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    #3174
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122384893#Comment_122384893

    I know we've gone down this road before, but two-way cycle paths are awful for anything other than when you want to go from one end to the other - this is what the vast majority of people on the coast road are doing for example and it works fairly well there. On arterial routes where they should be used for multiple different types of journeys with huge varieties of start points and end points they are a pox. The only other exception obviously is on otherwise one-way roads.

    The cycle paths are too narrow but the solution in order of preference should be 1) make the paths wider, 2) make it easier for cycles to enter the roadway to overtake and then 3) two-way cycle paths.

    They allow easier overtaking, but they also force users to make silly detours to access turn-offs on the other side of the road, including making most turn-offs completely inaccessible unless you just use the normal traffic lanes anyway. Huge numbers of cyclists will end up staying in the normal traffic lanes for this reason. If your destination on the route is Amiens St then fine, otherwise it is completely counterproductive. There is a reason they are not the norm in countries with proper cycle infrastructure.



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    #3175
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122384961#Comment_122384961

    Frankly Podge, I’m well over arguing this with you! frankly I’m genuinely shocked when I see what is planned for BusConnects.

    If we were building high quality one way cycle paths which means at least 2m, but preferably 2.5m, then I’ve no problem with one way paths.

    But we aren’t doing that, we are instead planning to build deplorable 1.5m wide paths as part of BusConnects on some of the busiest routes into the city!

    All your arguments about having to cross the road, etc. and go straight out the window when you are talking a deplorable 1.5m shite cycle lane.

    I’ll cross a road (which you’d have to do either way) for a 3m wide two way cycle path any time over a **** 1.5m one all day long. There is simply no comparison between the two.

    I get where you are coming from, in an ideal world, we should just give enough space for the 2.5m paths, but if you look at BusConnects it is very clear we aren’t ready to take the road space from cars to do that.

    The rule should be very simple, either the cycle path is a minimum of 2m and if you can’t fit that, then build a two way path (minimum 3m). End of story.



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    #3176
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Thinking about it, the reason I dislike these narrow one way cycle ways, is because I get to live the reality of them on almost a daily basis. And they are terrible.

    I get to cycle the shite Griffith Avenue cycle way almost daily and boy is it bad. Too narrow, can’t overtake, full of leaves, dirt and debris, gratings that narrow the path even more and parked cars next to the path opening doors into the cycle path!

    You mention people using the road rather then crossing to a two way path, but that happens constantly on Griffith Avenue, people are forced into the road to overtake slower bikes because of how narrow is.

    Can you just picture the number of cyclists who will choose to use the bus lane on lower Drumcondra Road rather than being stuck behind a cargo bike on a 1.5m cycle lane!

    I also really don’t get your whole crossing the road argument. You are going to have to cross the road regardless. Like when we cycle to school on Griffith Avenue, sure towards the school we are on the right side, but we still have to cross half a dozen junctions anyway and on the way back I have to cross the road twice anyway on the way back.

    Sure a two way path on the other side of the street, would be an extra two crossings, but that is hardly a big deal when you have a dozen other crossings anyway, what is two more?

    I’d happy to cross two more times to get to a wide, high quality two way path. A path where I could ride beside my child and not worry that we are getting in the way of a faster cyclist and forcing them into the road to overtake. A path wide enough where we wouldn’t have to worry about car doors being opened into us.

    The likes of the Clontarf cycle paths and the two way ones build by Dun Laoghaire Council are SO MUCH nicer, it isn’t even funny.

    What I’m saying is that the one way cycle paths we are building are shite, dangerous and not fit for purpose.



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    #3177
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122385185#Comment_122385185

    But you are arguing for replacing a poor solution with a potentially slightly less poor solution. I'm not even convinced it is less poor.

    I will ultimately be fine either way cause I'll just cycle in the road and ignore the angry drivers - cycle infrastructure isn't built for me. But we aren't going to convince more vulnerable users (who probably don't care so much about the ability to overtake I might add) to use the cycle path if they have to ride 200m past where they want to turn off, get off their back to cross the road and then walk their bike 200m back on the pavement to get to the road they actually want to turn onto. That is the reality of two-way cycletracks. You are a big fan of cycle infrastructure in the Netherlands etc and they never use them except on off-road paths or one way roads. It is just not a solution to the problems with the design.



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    #3178
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122385355#Comment_122385355

    Again vulnerable users would much rather use a wide two way path then a shite narrow path with cars door being opened into you. It isn’t even close, I see it every day with young kids cycling to school on Griffith Avenue.

    And your 200 meter thing is made up nonsense, why in gods name would you have to do that!

    A two way path could have broken curbing like the Griffith Avenue one way one does so that you can enter/exit it at any point and at junctions you would still have the usual toucan crosssings.

    As for netherlands, they have massive amounts of two way cycle paths and not just in the countryside, in cities too. I’ve read their cycling guidelines and they recommend two way paths when sufficient space for wide one way paths isn’t available.

    Again my experience of both one way and two way paths in Dublin is that the one way paths are completely shite and the two way paths are brilliant by comparison. Vulnerable users love the two way paths and feel much safer on them.



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    #3179
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BTW here is a new two way cycle path only put in the last year in the heart of Amsterdam:

    https://maps.app.goo.gl/36655iay61rXkAey5?g_st=ic




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    #3180
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Interestingly in the latest edition of the CROW Dutch Cycling manual they have now set the minimum width of a one way cycle path at 2.3m, up from 2m.

    The Irish cycling manual sets the minimum at 2m, with 2.5m preferred.

    The Swords road being just 1.5m, basically zero width for overtaking is complete madness.

    The rule of thumb should be very simple. Minimum width 2m of one way cycle path, otherwise make it two way.



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    #3181
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,991 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    I'm with bk on the one way vs two way paths. Much easier to overtake on the two way paths and generally feel calmer/safer.



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