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Meanwhile on the Roads...

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    #662
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,827 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370737#Comment_122370737

    In instances like this there always seems to be a desire from the Coroner's Court to spare the feelings of the deceaseds' families. Whilst understandable to a degree, it really does a dis-service to the whole purpose of holding an inquiry to then ignore the controllable factors that lead to these deaths (i.e. the tyres and the speed).



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    #663
    hesker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭hesker


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370737#Comment_122370737

    I heard there was Garda assessment of speed based on various pieces of evidence and it was well below speed limit. Also it had been raining very heavily beforehand



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    #664
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    It was calculated by gardaí that it was being driven at speeds of 51 kilometres per hour and 75 kph at different points on the hill, in a zone that was governed by a 50kph speed limit.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0711/1459361-accidental-death-verdicts-at-inquest-into-clonmel-crash/



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    #665
    Large bottle small glass
    Registered Users Posts: 1,807 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370879#Comment_122370879

    There a massive margin of error in that type of method for determining speed.

    Assuming one CCTV source, your perspective doesn't allow for accuracy at various points along the road. The fps in modern CCTV is helpful.

    Given the way evidence was presented I'd have little faith in the Garda forensic report regarding speed calculation.

    Loss of control was likely due to ponding due to flash flood type weather, inappropriate speed and near bald tyres especially on rwd drive. The media don't present multi factorial stories as they don't sell.



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    #666
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371060#Comment_122371060

    I've told this story before but a friend of mine went on to forensics after college, got trained in Scotland, worked there for a long time and now works for the French police force. Apparently the main methodologies (and I know little about it) that the Gardai use are not looked upon as accurate enough at all and (the example he gave was in dry conditions so maybe not relevant here), could severely underestimate speed in a forensic analysis of a crash. This was a good few years ago so may not still be true.



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    #667
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I don't want to focus too much on the individual case(s), as I can't imagine as a parent what the families are going through.

    However, in general there is a massive tendancy to downplay the factors that are in the control of people driving - inappropriate speed, roadworthiness of the vehicle, distracted driving. Instead it becomes about the road infrastructure, weather, other external factors. It just explains the mindset, and why it won't change in the State.



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    #668
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,554 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122370879#Comment_122370879

    What data did they have to hand to conclude speeds at two different times? Sure, they could make some sort of a fist of calculating at the point the car left the road, but at other points too?



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    #669
    Large bottle small glass
    Registered Users Posts: 1,807 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371549#Comment_122371549

    bar you have cctv close to perpendicular with road and synchronised to each other and have a significant gap between still it's a exercise fraught with error.

    If he got the the higher speed from one camera pointing toward 3 poles the margin of error is massive.



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    #670
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Yep, the problem with this story is accuracy of the speed estimate, not the unroadworthy vehicle.



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    #671
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371812#Comment_122371812

    A fair point, the wires were coming through on at least one tyre from my reading of the report. My father would have given me a slap if I rolled up to the house with a tyre like that on the car. I am not saying he was right, but he also wasn't wrong.



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    #672
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,554 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122371812#Comment_122371812

    There can be more than one 'problem' with a story. Pointing out one problem does not negate the other.



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    #673
    zell12
    Registered Users Posts: 25,175 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    his phone, “was mounted on his steering wheel on top of the airbag… driving at 70mph on the motorway and didn’t notice the Interceptors travelling alongside recording the evidence of his dangerous driving”

    https://www.thejournal.ie/euro-2024-dangerous-driving-6437347-Jul2024/

    I don't understand how the phone was on top of airbag, was phone fixed to steering wheel?



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    #674
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,757 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ^^^ sounds like it but it's something I'd occasionally see people doing (but usually holding it in place)

    Meanwhile, south of the border, we continue to avoid policing the roads as 14 out of the 15 fatal incidents involving learner drivers were not accompanied...

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/incredible-number-of-learner-drivers-involved-in-fatal-crashes-last-year-were-unaccompanied/a744810556.html

    The article continues to say that...

    Over 11,000 motorists in Ireland are still driving on learner permits after more than 20 years. A total of over 290,000 ­motorists in Ireland drive on a learner permit – with over 27,000 still on a learner permit after between 11 and 20 years.

    FFS 🙄



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    #675
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,937 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    the learner permit needs to expire - if you don't sit the test you have to go back and do your theory test and pay again.

    similarly anyone who fails more than X times (3 maybe?) should be made go back for an extra set of lessons.

    and obviously more enforcement of the accompanied rule.



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    #676
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122386394#Comment_122386394

    Mores the pity it's not like the UK, where L plates are only allowed when an actual learner is driving, and then it would be another use for ANPR. Either the Learner was driving unaccompanied/ on a motorway or the offence of not removing L plates for a non-learner is being committed. I learnt to drive 30 years ago, and magnetic L plates were a "thing" then so don't buy the too much hassle to take them off argument tbh.



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    #677
    Paddigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122386141#Comment_122386141

    Wedged I presume. I had a friend in the early-ish days of mobiles who used to do that as a DIY 'hands free' set up, before the advent of smartphones, bluetooth, hands free kits etc. That's what it sounds like here.



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    #678
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,010 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387362#Comment_122387362

    Could have been something like this, should be banned tbh.

    image.png



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    #679
    Paddigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    https://www.thesun.ie/news/13426460/kyle-hayes-dangerous-driving-charge-court-limerick-gaa/

    Nice fella for sure. I presume his manager will be out to bat for him again. Only the 150kmph (got to presume his speedometer was showing close to 170kmph, which he clearly thought was perfectly fine).



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    #680
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,554 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    why do you mention 170?



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    #681
    Paddigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122394873#Comment_122394873

    I've been told on this forum when complaining that when I stick my cruise control to 100kmph and am still passed by countless cars that in reality the car manufacturers have to factor in a percentage error rate to ensure that the car is never exceeding the limit shown. So to actually do 100kmph my speedo would need to be showing approx. 110kmph.

    Someone else can explain it better.

    But either everyone should be driving to the speed limit shown in their vehicles, and not readjusting for built in safety buffers, or we can accept that if a driver is pinged doing say 120kmph his speedo must have been showing a % higher than that again.

    If I was in the overtaking lane doing 100kmph overtaking someone doing say 95kmph, I'd have a Karl Hayes two inches from my exhaust. And if I argued that I was bang on the speed limit, he'd tell me that I have to go faster because the car speedo 'overestimates'.

    The "what's sauce for the goose" logic.



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    #682
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,554 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    there's a limit by which your car is allowed overreport your speed; it cannot underestimate it.

    but it's very possible that his speedo was correct; it's not that your car must overreport your speed. i.e. you can't state what his speedo would have been showing, except to say that if he was doing (say) 155km/h, his speedo would have been stating something between 155km/h and 180km/h (if i understand the regs correctly).

    FWIW my car reports my speed at about 85km/h when GPS states 80.



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    #683
    Mefistofelino
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    Its enshrined in EU legislation - a speedometer can never display less than actual speed and not more than 110% of actual speed + 10km/h.

    So assuming Hayes figure of 150 km/h is correct, then his speedo would have been displaying anything between 150 km/h and 175 km/h. Due to manufacturing tolerances, wear etc, no manufacturer is going to have the device at either extreme, so somewhere in the middle would be a reasonable assumption.



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    #684
    traco
    Registered Users Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭traco


    I've one car where speedo is 2kph over gps at 120kph and the worst offender is the Transit van which over reads by 9kph.

    It varies and tyre choice and size can alter the variable also but 150 is well outside any range.



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    #685
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    My vehicle seems to be a consistence 5km/hr over GPS.



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    #686
    dahat
    Registered Users Posts: 16,775 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395229#Comment_122395229

    This has worked in my favour 2/3 times recently, passing speed vans doing 103 & 104 in a 100km zones with no ticket issued.



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    #687
    Mefistofelino
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    All of which assumes that a phone or sat-nav GPS system is completely accurate for instantaneous speeds



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    #688
    Paddigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395396#Comment_122395396

    I wouldn't trust GPS myself.

    Any time I pass one of those road traffic displays that flash your speed at you, it shows I'm in or around 10% under what my speedo is showing.

    From my previous discussion on the issue on this very forum, it seems that there's a common perception that speed 'limits' are in fact speed targets, that hitting those speed targets necessitates an element of guessing how much above your speedometer you can push it, that driving below the speed targets is inconveniencing other drivers and that you shouldn't be critical of drivers who cruise past you when your speedo is reading max speed.

    The sooner we have mandatory limiters the better. Humans clearly can't be trusted.

    150kmph. Good man Karl.



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    #689
    traco
    Registered Users Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭traco


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395396#Comment_122395396

    They are accurate if sitting at a constant speed for a while but not much use if accelerating or decelerating due to the lag in the system



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    #690
    Paddigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122394980#Comment_122394980

    Oh it's possible alright. Sure it's all a game of guesswork. It's also possible he was blinded by the sun and didn't see the needle creeping up. Hopefully he get's Nolan and justice can be done for the poor fella. Just tryna get ta work and pay the bills.



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    #691
    Mefistofelino
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2024/0723/1461370-kyle-hayes/

    Hayes's barrister Liam Carroll, acting for solicitor Sarah Ryan, indicated to the court that there would be a willingness on the part of Hayes to enter a plea to the lesser charge of careless driving.

    Judge Colm Roberts said: "This is the trick that goes around, with a summary of the facts. I want to hear all of the facts and make up my mind. I have a strong view of what is dangerous driving.

    "I can only hear an application to bring it down to careless driving once I’ve heard the full facts. I’ve been stung by this before, the tolerance for dangerous driving is now much less so than it used to be."

    Interesting. Maybe he should let Martin Nolan know?



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