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SEAI Fuel Cost Comparison posters at petrol stations

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    #302
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122386899#Comment_122386899

    The goal is to make it easy to compare different types per distance, so I think adding a step where people have to do math to get the currency per 100km figure is overly complex. The regulation also requires it and was based on consumer feedback from a survey conducted by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile.

    For electric rates, I think the statistically derived blended rate should be primary as it's what most people should expect to pay. The mix should be updated over time as the average mix changes, but there's definite value in adding more information on public charging rates to the poster.



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    #303
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,178 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122386944#Comment_122386944

    For electric rates, I think the statistically derived blended rate should be primary as it's what most people should expect to pay. The mix should be updated over time as the average mix changes, but there's definite value in adding more information on public charging rates to the poster.

    Easier to show the price/100km at home and public charging separately. Those 2 figures will cover 95% of driving, and as I say the difference between public AC and DC is minimal. Let people figure it out then based on what they would expect to be doing. If a filling station wants to use their own figures on prices let them do that also



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    #304
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122386981#Comment_122386981

    The goal of the posters is to remove the need for average consumers to figure things out.

    A person who has never used an EV will have no idea how much of their charging is at home versus on the road. A statistically sourced representative average is in my opinion the fairest way of setting expectations.



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    #305
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,979 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122386882#Comment_122386882

    I think it's the job of the people selling the cars to make running costs clear.

    I object to making it the filling stations job.

    I never inferred that this is a secret SEAI initiative.



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    #306
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,979 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122386904#Comment_122386904

    It's not impossible just because you say it is.

    If you are putting up a poster explaining the benefits of a certain product that's advertising.

    For me the problem is that instead of the filling station advertising what they sell they are forced to advertise what power companies sell.



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    #307
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,989 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Or even to simplify it further, why not show a €/km on home charging based on a 24hr rate, a home charging based on night rate, and then a public charging rate

    Blending it together adds confusion and nonsense IMO. If it doesnt make sense to the general population they will just ignore it anyway and as such it's a waste



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    #308
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,178 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387085#Comment_122387085

    There will always be that one person who buys a new car, charges 16.57kWh at an Applegreen charger and can't figure out why he's paying €12.40 instead of €3.78 like the sign said

    Digging deep into the figures, the claim is 22.8c/kWh for a 90% home and 10% on-the-road mix. Night rate is also shown as 18c/kWh on average. So if we just took that figure we would have less than €3 on a home rate and €12.40 on the public charge rate. Much more straightforward



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    #309
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387118#Comment_122387118

    Thanks to the EU directive, it's now the job of people selling the thing that makes the vehicle move to give consumers information on how much it costs to buy the things that makes the vehicle move per 100km and the alternative options.

    I still don't think you've clearly expressed why you really want to protect the fuel operators from informed customers?



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    #310
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,979 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387215#Comment_122387215

    I understand that it's an EU directive.

    That doesn't make it immune from comment and criticism.

    I hold no brief for filling station operators and believe strongly in consumers being informed.

    My objection is based on the principle that one business should not be forced to advertise the benefits of another.



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    #311
    kaahooters
    Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭kaahooters


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387248#Comment_122387248

    so, shops shouldnt have coke and pepsi prices listed?



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    #312
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,979 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387266#Comment_122387266

    Not if they don't sell coke or pepsi.



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    #313
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387248#Comment_122387248

    Given the desire to inform consumers of the up to date expected €/100km of different energy sources for their private transportation, and you've agreed that informed consumers are better, where else do you think it makes sense to provide that information?

    Earlier you said you think it should be up to the manufacturers, I don't think it's a workable solution to have a poster that's updated every 3 months in each car. I think the most logical place to display that information is at the point of purchase.



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    #314
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,979 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387335#Comment_122387335

    All of the usual forms of advertising are available including online.

    POS opportunities exist in showrooms, repair centres etc.

    Manufacturers regularly keep in touch with customers either directly or through their dealer network.

    My main objection is based on the fact that the filling station is not the point of purchase for home charging.



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    #315
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,178 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387160#Comment_122387160

    Yes. There are very few non-EV drivers with night rates at the moment so in a way it also makes sense to use that rate as well.

    EV charging is effectively a dual-market, at home and on-the-road so blending them gives a figure that most will never attain.



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    #316
    TheSunIsShining
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭TheSunIsShining


    We switched one car to an EV. Our driving means we only ever have to charge during the 3 hours really cheap electricity window and we have never had to public charge - and we are saving a fortune in running costs as we are probably paying less than €1.50 per 100km on the EV whereas the diesel was costing us €13.50 per 100km (car was reporting 7.9l per 100km at say €1.71 a litre last week .

    So in fact the poster is too high on electric costs for us and too low on diesel so we are a glorious example of the potential savings.

    But I don't agree with the poster and to me it is biased in favour of EVs and I would agree with the person above who said it should show private and public charging prices separately. As things stand, the charging price on it is not as absolute as the diesel or petrol price and I think that's wrong - while, as I said our reality is that we are that very person who is saving loads.



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    #317
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387577#Comment_122387577

    But most people do obtain something similar to that figure as the most charging is performed at home, and they do a small amount of charging in public. That's exactly what the figure is intended to inform people of.



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    #318
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387160#Comment_122387160

    You really want to over-complicate it for no benefit other than you don't like it 🙄



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    #319
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,178 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387668#Comment_122387668

    The average Joe public doesn't know any of this, and might expect all chargers to be roughly that price



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    #320
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122388014#Comment_122388014

    I think you are mixing up two use cases.

    The intent of the comparison posters is to give people information on the expected relative costs of individual fuels on the market. The prices are to be based on averages in a given member state.

    The Alternative Fuels Infrastructure Regulation also has requirements for clear display of pricing before starting a charging session that should include all components that will be billed, e.g. price per kg, price per minute.



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    #321
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122387436#Comment_122387436

    What's the problem with telling people at the point they are purchasing energy for their car the costs in an easily comparable of alternatives?

    This comes back to the bit where it sounds like you don't want consumers to be provided with information. If a person buying petrol is shown that buying diesel will save them €1.58 per 100km surely that's a good thing for that person to know.



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    #322
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,979 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122388237#Comment_122388237

    They can't purchase electricity on the forecourt at the poster price.

    I'll be repeating myself again but it's the compulsion on a retailer to advertise the benefits of something they don't sell that I find objectionable.

    I have already stated that I think consumers should be informed and I consider myself a well informed consumer.

    I'm fairly sure that there isn't a motorist in Ireland who doesn't know that petrol is currently more expensive than diesel.

    It's shown clearly on a large red display sign where they buy it.



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    #323
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122388446#Comment_122388446

    I'll be repeating myself again but it's the compulsion on a retailer to advertise the benefits of something they don't sell that I find objectionable.

    The idea is to help change mindsets so that if people are considering a new car, they could go with the one that has a lower running cost when compared to the ICE models, the running of which is also mode damaging to the environment. Switching to an EV would go towards reducing our dependency on oil.
    Honestly, what is objectionable about this?



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    #324
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122388446#Comment_122388446

    The display sign is giving the unit price per litre, not an expected price per 100km.

    The reason I used diesel as the example is that directive isn't about making people aware that electricity is cheaper, it's about making people aware of the relative travel costs of alternative fuel choices. Any source regularly used for automotive reasons is to be displayed on the posters.

    Let's say we have a roll out of hydrogen (as is available in other countries subject to this regulation). How do you expect an average consumer to compare €1.80/l versus €7.00/kg and have any idea how much it will cost them to drive from Dublin to Cork. Would you also be against the inclusion of hydrogen, LPG, and CNG on the poster?

    You keep saying that you are in favour of informed consumers and yet want to push back at a simple consumer education measure in the form of a poster at the point of sale. I don't think the attitude of I want people to have information but only if they go and find it themselves is a win for informed consumers as we move from fossil fuels to the alternatives.



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    #325
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,979 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122388485#Comment_122388485

    I understand the idea and I'm aware of public policy decisions designed to promote EV use and discourage ICE.

    It's my opinion that other methods are available to the Government to change mindsets.

    I feel that using the law to force private businesses to advertise the benefits of something they don't sell is wrong.

    The law is literally making them advise their customers to go elsewhere to the detriment of their own business.



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    #326
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I feel that using the law to force private businesses to advertise the benefits of something they don't sell is wrong.

    Your feelings shouldn't be part of a bigger picture though!

    The law is literally making them advise their customers to go elsewhere to the detriment of their own business

    ...and to the benefit of society, the environment, the customers pockets, etc.

    Honestly, the amount of whining over a feckin sign is unreal!



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    #327
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122388617#Comment_122388617

    It gets even more unreal when you think that the major fuel retailers all have skin in the game when it comes to selling EV charging. Applegreen, Maxol, CircleK, and Certa all sell charging service under their own brands. I think that leaves Texaco and Top Oil as the only major ones who need to be protected from informed consumers.



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    #328
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,979 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122388578#Comment_122388578

    Again, I know what the EU, SEAI, Government are aiming to achieve. I disagree with their method, specifically with regard to the poster.

    I have no problem with posters advertising what is actually for sale at the forecourt, so if they sell hydrogen, LPG etc. add them to the poster.

    I understand that you support the promotion of EVs and that's fine.

    I am in favour of consumers being informed but there are other ways to achieve that.

    I just don't think the end justifies the means in this instance.



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    #329
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122388701#Comment_122388701

    The means of sticking up a poster and replacing it every 3 months? Not exactly the most onerous of requirements in the world.

    A poster only showing the sources available on site doesn't meet the requirement of informing consumers of alternative fuel options that may or may not be available on a particular site. It really comes across as you think the only way fuel stations can stay in business is through consumers being ignorant of the relative costs of the alternatives.



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    #330
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,979 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122388721#Comment_122388721

    I never said it was an onerous requirement in a physical sense.

    I thought by this stage in our discussion you would accept that my objection is based on principle not just the effort of placing a poster



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    #331
    cc
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭cc


    Isnt this just like the price per litre you see on drinks labels in supermarkets? Its not that you can buy everything in 1 litre bottles but let's you know the relative price. It's nice to have but most people will never notice



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