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Credit Union and missing 2K

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  • 17-07-2024 4:20pm
    #1
    Dinging
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭


    Back in January I transferred almost 2K to my bank account to pay some bills after the Christmas holiday. The transfer was from my credit union to my bank, this was done over 2 transactions, 1K per transaction. No money hit my account after 3 days, I put it down to the Xmas break and said it would sort itself out when everyone was back to work. After a number of days get a WhatsApp message from a builder and he said that I had logged 2K into their bank account. I was in dispute with this builder over work they had done for me, work that was incomplete, and an insurance claim against him was active. In the heat of the moment and in an attempt to recoup the money I agreed to drop all my demands and the insurance claim that was open against this him. I needed the cash back, my bills were due and my account was overdrawn. After some back and forward we agreed on the terms. The value of the insurance claim was about 2K and the unfinished work cost me 4K to remedy.

    At the same time I asked the credit union to look into this for me. How did this happen? About 10 days later they came back to me and let me know that they had incorrectly set up a payee under my account, using my name but used the builders bank details, account number, sort code etc. They admitted to this, said it was an administration error on their side and they lodged 2K into my account to cover the loss.

    Approx a week later the money that I had incorrectly transferred was then returned to me by the builder. I dropped all demands and we received a final invoice, engineers certs etc from the work. Case closed.

    The credit union subsequently contacted the builder looking for the money, he told them to talk to me. So now the CU are demanding this money back but I am withholding this for now as this was their mistake, it has cost me about 6K in losses. They are threatening legal action, I told them to go ahead, that are not getting their money back.

    What would you do in this case?

    Post edited by Jim2007 on


Comments

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    #2
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,211 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Gotta be honest, I would say that if it went to court then you would be in the wrong.

    You received the money that was sent in error, AND received the compensation. You're 2k in profit.

    Regarding the drama and the loss with the builder, that's nothing to do with the CU, and by rights you should have proceeded with the insurance claim.

    Now, IMO I would imagine the CU will not proceed with a claim and write it off as a loss, but who knows.



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    #3
    Smee_Again
    Registered Users Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    So the credit union refunded you the €2K before the builder did? Why would you agree to drop the claim if you had already been made whole by the CU.

    I'd be enquiring if I can re-start the claim against the builder and if so refunding the credit union.



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    #4
    This is it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,497 ✭✭✭This is it


    The appropriate step was to raise the issue to the CU and seek to retrieve the money from those that made the mistake. Instead you went about getting the funds back yourself, and also received the funds from the CU.

    What would I do? I wouldn't have done anything with the builder in the first place, but at this point I would return the money to the CU.



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    #5
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    If there was 6k in losses and you say CU admitted fault why did you settle for less? This doesn't sound right.

    If this went to court I could see the cu winning, you've got a double payment for the specific funds in question and they are rightly seeking it back after you previously did a settlement with them.

    Was there any specific wording to any settlement with the CU?



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    #6
    JVince
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭JVince


    Unfortunately it will go against you.

    The CU refunded you their error. The builder refunded you the error too.

    The CU then claimed back the money as in their eyes you were no longer at a loss.

    That you had a separate agreement covering other issues that had nothing to do with the CU is not of consequence in these transactions.

    Whether you have a case of "causation" is debatable too as you acted fairly hastily.

    You also will need to understand that the CU is part of the Central Credit Register and if it goes to their collection dept for action, it will show up on the credit register and any type of loan agreement with any financial institution will be affected for the next 5 years.

    As you said, you did the "deal" with the builder in the heat of the moment and it look like this is where you came unstuck.

    I think you'll just have to accept the loss and move on as the cost and consequence of the CU taking legal action could be multiples of the current cost.



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    #7
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,298 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    A couple of issues here:

    1. You need to read the terms and conditions of the CU that you have signed up to and in particular you obligation to return to the CU monies credited to your account in error.
    2. Your business arrangements with the builder, the negotiations you under took and the loss you incurred are not relevant to your interaction with the CU. They did not cause your losses.
    3. Having made an arrangement with the builder to recover the 2K, you did not inform the CU of this and accepted 2k from them in compensation for their error… that technically meets the definition of fraud and could lead to a criminal complaint.
    4. As someone else pointed out the CU is obliged to report such incidents to the CCR and that will remain on that report until the debt is settled plus five years.
    5. The CU may factor the dept and the third party may be much more difficult to deal with than the CU.

    Now none of us here can tell you what action the CU or a debt agency will take, nor the Garda and the DPP if the CU were to make a criminal complaint was made and as they say - if you play silly games you may win one of those silly prizes….

    I don't expect it will go well for you and you could very well end up spending a lot more than 2k on legal fees as a result…



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    #8
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    You illegally have the credit unions money which you have admitted to, just give it back to them unless you want a whole legal mess and more bills to pay. Credit union didnt make any agreement with a builder, you done that so thats entirely on you.



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    #9
    n.d.os
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    It's a really tricky one. I do see your side of the story but the credit union did fix things on their end so I suppose you are only hanging onto the extra 2k due to a dispute with the builder. You'll be told to give it back if it goes to court and I think because you agreed terms with the builder you'd get nowhere with that either. It's very unfortunate. Maybe just pay it back to the CU and leave them wraithing reviews every week until they pay you compensation. They probably never will but I would pester them to death and after you've paid it back even ask for a sit down meeting with them and go to town on them. Get it in a local paper too so people know not to trust them if they don't want to help you. At the end of the day credit unions should be there for the public in your area and in this case they caused you a lot of stress. On boards you'll always get the "you were wrong" answer because people forget there's a human behind this post and love to tell people they were wrong and should have known better. It's important to think about yourself in these situations, bring in a little emotion to the situation and I would just pay them back but make their life miserable because they messed up and as the small guy in this situation the only thing you can do is use your voice to publicly repremand them for being a **** company.

    In 2020 a huge company in Europe kept my money after a trade show was cancelled and the government in their country granted a legal protection so they didn't have to refund anyone for a year. They had sent out countless emails and statements before this saying people would be refunded. I never saw my money but was later told they refunded all the bigger companies who could afford to sue them. For three years I commented annominously under every video they posted on YouTube, every podcast and generally just made their PR teams life miserable. Eventually in 2023 I rebooked the show, tricked the CEO into meeting me under the help of a colleague and in front of 5 other people told them they had held onto my money for 3 years and their staff had stopped responding to my emails. I told her that unless they reduced the cost of my final invoice I was taking home all of their electrical equipment in our truck after the show. That day the embarrassed French lady contacted her sales manager who had been ignoring me for 3 years but happy to email me about my 2023 booking and they issued me credit against my 2020 booking on the 2023 invoice. They lost so many brands who have never done their shows again. Sometimes you just have to be a petty asshole in these situations. At this point they don't even remember they messed me around and I'm booked again for 2024.

    Post edited by n.d.os on


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    #10
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,734 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122406513#Comment_122406513

    Nobody caused him stress other than his own actions. Leaving persistent bad reviews on the CU would be a sh1ty thing to do. As someone running a business, how would you like to be drawn into a dispute not of your making and be out of pocket in the process?



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    #11
    n.d.os
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122406522#Comment_122406522

    It is of their own making. They made the mistake. I wouldn't let down a customer Jim. I've personally visited clients face to face to check in with them whenever we have made even the smallest mistake. Too many big companies have **** customer service and just brush it under the carpet. Tackle these things before they become a problem and at least your company looks good at the end of it. It's clearly caused him stress Jim and I see his side of the story. He wouldn't be posting here if it didn't.



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    #12
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,734 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122406552#Comment_122406552

    The CU recognised and remedied their mistake. Do you not see the mess is as a result of the 'deal' the OP did, rather than contacting the CU and letting them reverse their error? He owns the CU €2000. Plain and simple.



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    #13
    mountain
    Registered Users Posts: 2,205 ✭✭✭mountain


    my understanding is that he now has 4000 euro,

    He clearly owes the Credit Union 2000,



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    #14
    alan partridge aha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,237 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    I'd have played dumb with the CU and said they may deal with the Builder.



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    #15
    Panthro
    Registered Users Posts: 14,805 ✭✭✭✭Panthro


    Why did the CU set up a payee under your account with the builders info? What are the odds they picked the very builders info you had employed.

    That sounds suss to me.



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    #16
    This is it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,497 ✭✭✭This is it


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122406815#Comment_122406815

    Possibly the OP made a previous payment from their CU account to the builder and the CU used the same payee details. Huge cockup whatever happened, but I can't see the OP being allowed to keep the 2k.



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    #17
    n.d.os
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122406815#Comment_122406815

    The credit union messed up on this guy and now he's on boards.ie looking for advice which appears to be very mixed. If they hadn't messed up he wouldn't be in this situation and I think it's quite unfair that is dealing with it to be honest. He had to make some quick decisions to try and recoup the money so you can't blame him for getting tied up in this mess. The credit union owe him a proper sit down to try and work it out.



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    #18
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 5,041 ✭✭✭Deeec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122406815#Comment_122406815

    I'm also failing to see how this happened. How did the transfer reach the builders account when there was a different name on the transfer.

    If at an earlier stage the op set up a payee with their builders bank details but used their name then surely the CU can't be to blame. This shouldn't be possible but I guess could happen. The op has to accept liability though.



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    #19
    Dinging
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭Dinging


    The CU set up the payee. They are the only entity that can do so. They conducted an audit and very clearly stated yes this was their mistake.



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    #20
    This is it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,497 ✭✭✭This is it


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122407873#Comment_122407873

    How did they get your builders details?



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    #21
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 5,041 ✭✭✭Deeec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122407873#Comment_122407873

    Any payment to the builder shouldn't have went through as the account details didn't match the account name. Did you tell them to put your name on or the builders name as the payee when you originally set it up. What's on the slip of paper they gave you when they set the payment up.

    It doesn't make sense how this happened



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    #22
    JVince
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭JVince


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122408002#Comment_122408002

    Once the IBAN is correct, it goes through.

    In the UK they have recently introduced a system where the name and address must mostly match.

    It hasn't come into Ireland yet.



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    #23
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 5,041 ✭✭✭Deeec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122408080#Comment_122408080

    I know with AIB I have had problems in the past with payments where the name didn't match the IBAN.



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    #24
    JVince
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭JVince


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122408476#Comment_122408476

    Possibly they have added it as extra security. I did notice recently that they look for more information on payments, especially international.



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    #25
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 5,041 ✭✭✭Deeec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122408514#Comment_122408514

    I have no idea of how the cu system works. Im shocked though that in 2024 where financial fraud levels are high, that ibans are not cross checked to names. Its basic common sense re security in my opinion. The op's payment should never have reached the builder if this was done.

    Anyway either way I think the op owes the 2k to the credit union and needs to pay it back asap



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    #26
    JVince
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭JVince


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122408601#Comment_122408601

    It only came into the UK last year and even then it just needs to be a broad match.

    Also you have issues where someone uses a married name in one situation and a maiden name is on the account.

    Similarly, someone can have a "home address" on the bank account, but are living elsewhere.

    If exact match was brought in, millions of payments would be refused.



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    #27
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 5,041 ✭✭✭Deeec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122408647#Comment_122408647

    I don't see the issue here. Nobody should be giving out their bank details and giving a wrong name. For example I wouldn't give you my bank details with my married name if I knew the name on my account was my maiden name. When I'm setting up a payment I always ask for the account name, IBAN and account address. If they give me a name that doesn't match their name on the account then their an effing idiot would you not agree



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    #28
    JVince
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭JVince


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122408793#Comment_122408793

    Yep, in an ideal perfect world.

    Problem is we are not in an ideal perfect world.

    Just checked UK rules. Just a name match is required and even then you can opt out. ( You lose some safeguards) Address only required if requested by the bank.



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    #29
    Dinging
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭Dinging


    The CU account was used to pay the builder. This was done in branch. Never online. I got access to the app and requested that myself and my wife’s joint account be set up as a payee. The CU set it up. Users cannot set up payees. They used our names but the builders IBAN. They took 2 weeks to figure this out. They admitted to the mistake, apologised and logged 2k into the CU account.



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    #30
    This is it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,497 ✭✭✭This is it


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122409187#Comment_122409187

    Grand, big mistake from them obviously. But now you owe them the 2k the builder returned to you. You can chase them for compensation, probably via a solicitor, but I can only see this ending badly for you if you hold on to the 2k.



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    #31
    Smee_Again
    Registered Users Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122409187#Comment_122409187

    So when the CU lodged the €2K why didn't you tell the builder the deal was off and continue with your claim/dispute against them?

    This is where you messed up. Your issue was resolved and you had been made whole again, at this point your deal with the builder is entirely irrelevant to the CU issue.



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