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Clontarf to City Centre Cycle & Bus Priority Project discussion (renamed)

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    #3182
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122385467#Comment_122385467
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122384961#Comment_122384961

    The only other exception obviously is on otherwise one-way roads.

    That is not a counter-example, it is a one-way road for traffic where a bi-directional cycle lane makes perfect sense.

    Two-way cycle paths are far less safe when crossing junctions also (and this is where cycling is ubiquitous, it would be worse in Ireland)

    https://swov.nl/nl/publicatie/het-kijkgedrag-van-automobilisten-en-fietsers-bij-kruispunten-met-een

    I don't know Amsterdam well, but I know Rotterdam well and it has very few bi-directional cycle lanes except outside the city and on one way roads. They are not recommended for city use.

    And they are a pain in the arse (admittedly a fact/opinion not covered above). Lots of side roads have no signal controlled pedestrian junctions, a bi-directional cycle lane makes it almost impossible to access those roads without the steps I mentioned above. If you want to get to certain parts of Clontarf from the coast road as it stands you either cross an unsignalised junction, you walk your bike for a good chunk, or you cycle on the road for a decent distance anyway. In the grand scheme of things that is ok as at least there are no side roads on the other side to worry about, but we should never, ever be bringing in bi-directional cycle lanes as a default in the city.

    The solution to narrow paths with car doors potentially being opened is better cycle paths and segregated parking. Your solution is not a solution and goes against all the principles of cycle paths in places they are actually used well.

    We are obviously broadly on the same side here, I want better infrastructure. I just disagree on the solution.

    Post edited by Podge_irl on


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    #3183
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122385617#Comment_122385617

    They have huge benefits when used properly yes. They are just terrible for commuter routes.



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    #3184
    Citizen Six
    Registered Users Posts: 2,462 ✭✭✭Citizen Six


    IMG_9243.jpeg
    IMG_9242.jpeg
    IMG_9174.jpeg
    IMG_9173.jpeg
    IMG_9172.jpeg

    Outbound open as far as five lamps.
    Inbound under the bridge at Connolly progressing.
    Zebra crossing at bus stops.
    New plastic bollards going in at end of Alfie Byrne/Clontarf prom.



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    #3185
    Disco24
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Disco24


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122401155#Comment_122401155

    Good to see progress.

    Orange plastic cones looks dreadful.



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    #3186
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122401155#Comment_122401155

    Seriously, what's the point of those stupid plastic bollards, half of them will end up blown into the sea.



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    #3187
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122401314#Comment_122401314

    Ah, pretty sure that they're being put in to correct a design flaw. It's hard to tell that there's a difference in height between the curb and the cycle track, so a fair few cyclists have "spontaneously demounted" there. It's actually an easy enough mistake to make, as there's other areas around there that don't have a height difference, and it's a desire path.

    The council has a belief that it knows best, and decided to send cyclists on a longer route for "safety", but then adds in a barely perceptible obstacle. I can't shake my head enough at that kind of stuff.



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    #3188
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122385756#Comment_122385756

    Sorry, unless I'm misunderstanding you, I'd say it is the opposite.

    Commuter routes, like pretty much all the BusConnects routes are ideal for two way lanes. You enter the cycle path at your home and you then exit it in the city center. Add to that the tidal nature of these routes, with most people cycling towards town in the morning and out in the evening, two way routes are ideal for that.

    I get what you are saying about one way lanes for more local type routes, where you just want to pop out to the shops two minutes down the road and back again. I don't think two way lanes are particularly bad for them, but I do get your thinking on them in that regard.

    However the Busconnects routes will mostly be used by folks commuting to work, potentially long distances (for cycling) and thus ideal for two way routes.

    Like a person living in Swords but working in the City center is not going to care that they have to cross the road two extra times to get onto a high quality 4 meter wide two way cycle lane to cycle into work!

    Interestingly you should look at what London did with their so called cycling Superhighway. The initial first gen lanes built in 2010, were one way narrow lanes, like you suggest and we are building with BusConnects. But now they have realised there mistake and are now replacing them all with new second generation lanes, 4 meter wide two way cycle lanes and they are much nicer, see here:

    https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/evolution-cycle-superhighways-london



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    #3189
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122401346#Comment_122401346

    Yeah, this area is super badly designed!

    Pedestrians and dogs walk on the cycle path and cyclists cycle on the footpath, a complete mess. And it would have been so easy to do this properly. A good example of them trying to be too clever and coming out with a worse outcome. It would have been much easier to do it properly!



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    #3190
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    https://twitter.com/DubCityCouncil/status/1814315846799397228

    So, had my first experience with cyclists here this morning, coming from Seville Place straight across to Portland Row. The cyclist came up to the junction, which was on a green light, then they swerved out into the traffic to continue straight. It was totally fine, I saw them coming in the mirror, and I had suspected that the design of the junction would make some cyclists do exactly that, but even so, to have it happen only days after it opened is a fair condemnation of its design.

    Perhaps it'll be better when there are two car lanes, but I'd say not.



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    #3191
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 14,218 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    image.png

    Was looking forward to cycling home via the new Amiens St to Five Lamps section and this was in the way, also an abandoned taxi behind the van too. Would be nice if they enforced keeping these lanes vehicle free.



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    #3192
    Citizen Six
    Registered Users Posts: 2,462 ✭✭✭Citizen Six


    New road markings in opposite entrance to Clontarf Road Dart.

    Screenshot 2024-07-22 at 13.17.46.jpeg



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    #3193
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 14,218 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    that van just parks there for free advertisement, all the time. same with mattress mick cars, just dumped around the place for advertising. annoys me how they can just take footpath space for free advertising.



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    #3194
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,643 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122401314#Comment_122401314

    There's a lad that sold them a heap of bollards and they have loads left over so they're probably just sticking them down anywhere they can. makes absolutely no sense to put them there.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122411669#Comment_122411669

    They can't put them here outside the hotel you see because they would look crap.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122411810#Comment_122411810

    I didn't realise that only busses may turn right into the car park.



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    #3195
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I didn't realise that only busses may turn right into the car park.

    Yes, doesn’t make sense, no one is going to take any notice if that!



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    #3196
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,166 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122385617#Comment_122385617

    I actually see both sides of this. I have (for a very long time) actively supported 2-way paths, but plenty of people (cyclists) who I've worked with have argued that the 1-way-per-side is the only option for routes with a lot of junctions, and we've gone through a lot of worked examples together now.

    What it comes down to for me, is whether it's an end-to-end cycleway over a larger distance (make it 2-way if it's over a hundred metres) or a city centre street (make it per-side if there's a junction every few metres. It's a very delicate balancing act.

    I'll still always prefer the 2-way, because most of my journeys are 5km or so at minimum. But now I can see why that's not always possible.

    It sounds like "Clontarf to City Centre" is a whole dedicated corridor, so 2-way would generally be the preference for me then. But the junction design is much more difficult then, obviously.



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    #3197
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122411956#Comment_122411956

    Yes, that is totally fair.

    We are mostly talking about the core BusConnects routes into the city and orbital routes around the city. Definitely not short city center streets.

    Of course some people will use the BC routes to cycle short distance, but the majority will be cycling long distance commuting into town. Swords to City Center or Howth to City Center.

    This CC2C route is just a part of a much longer Howth to City route which is mostly two way on the old parts and will be extended further North in future. Even new sections on Alfie Byrne Road and East Wall are being built two way, so I don't understand why they suddenly swapped to one way for this new CC2C section! It is going to cause problems people switching between the two way section and the one way section, it is just bad design.

    I'm not fundamentally against one way routes, for instance the Malahide Road BC route, other then the stupid detour between Griffith Avenue and Clontarf Road, it is mostly fine, at 2m wide the entire route.

    But then I look at the Swords Road BC route, just 1.5m wide on Lower Drumcondra Road, what is likely to be one of the busiest routes in the city is just mad IMO!

    Looking at the BusConnects plans, it is very clear to me what is happening. They are bolting on cycle lanes in the cheapest and easiest way possible that minimises any impact to the existing road layout!

    It is basically just the slightest evolution on the old painting a line on the road.

    Where their is plenty of extra road space, they give you 2m, but where that gets harder, like Lower Drummcondra Road, then squeeze it down to just 1.5m. Or worse send you off on a stupid detour like on Brian Road.

    Like much of the 2m section are on the outskirts of the city, which would be the quieter part of the city, while closer to the city just 1.5m, despite that section being MUCH busier. It doesn't make sense from a design perspective, other then not wanting to take space from onstreet parking, etc.

    I'd really suggest reading the article about the London cycle lanes I posted a few posts up. Basically in London they did the same back in 2010, just bolting on narrow cycle lanes, they are now digging all these up and building high quality two way lanes instead, because demand is so high.

    I fear we will spend the next 10 years building BC routes that aren't much better then painted lines and we will open them, realise they are massively over capacity and be back digging them up and doing them properly the next time around.

    I feel the theory doesn't match reality of what is happening on the ground.

    For me the rule of thumb is simple, one way cycle lanes need to be a minimum of 2m, if you can't fit that, then a 3m to 3.5m two way lane is better.



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    #3198
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,166 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep I think if you actually get to interact directly with the Bus Connects team, you'll find they're quite good at taking on this kind of feedback. Certainly in Cork anyway, the problems I've found are that the original designs were done by a plethora of individual companies whose attitudes to cycle infrastructure vary wildly. We're getting this "minimalist" approach on some corridors, then some really high quality stuff on other corridors.

    I'd actually much rather the "Amsterdam" approach of picking a primary route into the city that will prioritise either bikes OR motor vehicles, and from what I've seen of Bus Connects, that has been the biggest failing: trying to get a bus corridor and cycle corridor into one street/route. Basically what I'm arguing for us full removal of motor primacy on some routes/streets like the Dutch do. A hard sell in Ireland!



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