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In the event of united Ireland could DUP attract a significant vote in the Republic / 26 Counties ?

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Sigh, okay if you insist on pedantry to score points: Yes I am disputing your answer and already had done so because, again, your assertion that FG and the DUP are kin because of one guest speaker 5 years ago and "water charges" are not silver bullets towards some "same coin". And, TBH, wilfully ignores the fairly distinct and inescapable ideological differences that foundationally makes the entire thread laughable redundant. But here we are 7 pages later.

    But if you're gonna make childish jibes about closet SF support or clinging to technicalities rather than interrogate the credibility of your point - and I suspect you know it - then we're done here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,186 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The very people who are least likely to care whether a UI is in the BC or not.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I see the argument now is that the DUP is also ideologically aligned to literally every governing party in Europe outside Ireland as if that makes any sense whatsoever.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Sure why not? Cos at this stage it seems any and all comparisons are on the table if alignment can be tethered like random policies like a Stopped Clock. At this stage if the DUP's leadership prefer the same brand of teabag it'd be enough it seems.

    Let's not forget for a second this entire, utterly pointless thread that won't die, all started because of this statement:

    I think they could. There's clearly a gap in the market for a political party which supports traditional values, families, are anti-abortion and are sceptical of the wokery rubbish.

    With a start that suspect & ideologically tedious, where else could it all have gone except downward? And at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, the only rational answer I still think is that if a United Ireland happened, the Capital-U Unionist vote will have been diluted enough that anyone still that socially-conservative under that umbrealla would probably just drift into whatever equivalent minor party existed at the time (New-Renua? Post Tóbín Aontú if it still exists?)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If they take any votes at all, it will be the FG socially conservative ones. Socially conservative FFers republicanism would put them off I think.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,864 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    FG take the "progressive" stance on just about any social issue you can imagine though (abortion, gay marriage, surrogacy, trans, hate speech, "conversion therapy" etc.).

    If this isn't costing them votes from social conservatives, I don't know how the DUP entering the fray would change anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I've seen people luxuriate in this image of FG being 'progressive'. It's not my experience of them.
    Sure they have had 'progressive' politicians and even some policy, but the vast majority of FG voters were always the most conservative in Ireland followed closely by elements of FF. Leo Varadkar is nearly 15 years younger than me and in his lifetime he was opposed to same sex marriage rights until the wind changed. 'Progressive'? Yeh right.

    Might make you uncomfortable but that still present conservative rump have more in common with the Paisley's party than anyone else. Take the constitutional question out of it (and sometimes you don't even need to do that as FG would attract most partitionists and those who regret leaving the UK resident in the south) and I see no problem with the DUP attracting votes here at times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,864 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    This makes no sense though. FG currently have absolutely no socially conservative policies, if anything they pride themselves on their crusading progressive zeal. What would motivate a social conservative to vote for a party which is the opposite of socially conservative?

    Bringing up some past stereotypical FG voter is pointless too, unless through time travel unification happens in the past. FG have planted their flag firmly in the liberal/progressive/whatever camp, and they'll have no social policies in common with the DUP if/when unification comes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,186 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Nonsense. FG has had a strong liberal wing since the mid 1960s. It certainly wasn't FF pushing for divorce or non-prescription condoms…

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


     liberal wing

    Which is what I said. See post.

    Is the entire FG vote 'liberal'. No, I don't think you can say that at all.

    I think some would align with the social policy of the DUP and after a time give them a vote. Donaldson addressing their conference and being applauded shows you that IMO. Brexit may have set that friendship back a bit but that had more to do with the DUP's aversion to the south generally than FG.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,186 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    That's not what you said Francie. This is what you said:

    the vast majority of FG voters were always the most conservative in Ireland 

    You have not provided anything whatsoever to substantiate this.

    Bringing up Donaldson's visit yet again is ridiculous. You might as well be trying to link FG with alleged sex offenders, it'd make no less sense than what you are saying.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Personal experience.
    I was one of those who as a recently graduated student campaigned for divorce in the 80's for instance. The most bitter and vociferous objection to that social change encountered, came from conservative FGers. If you didn't live through those times and later ones I can understand how you might not share my point of view.
    To this very day, the most partitionist and pro-unionist people in the south support FG, this site is a microcosm of that hence the easy applause for the leader of the DUP. They may not wholly agree but they are amenable to agreeing with them. Just an pretty obvious fact IMO however uncomfortable it might now be for some.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    It shouldn't need pointing out that the 1980s were approximately 40 years ago and tethering your belief of FG being a predominantly conservative party to relative ancient history doesn't match the reality of recent, relevant events. FG is socially liberal, and parties re-align their ideologies all the time. What times you lived through, I'm afraid, are irrelevant to the discussions of today.

    But trotting out the Donaldson talk as some Silver Bullet is so laughable it defies credibility. As if polite applause of a guest speaker is some ideological j'accue when … what? They should have booed? Thrown rotten eggs.

    And I see mixing in the personal jibe like others again; pretty good way to dirty the waters without having to interrogate the obvious personal bias in your own views. There's a difference between wanting there to be some relationship, and proving there is one. Raging Thatcherite that he is the mere presence, the mere existence of Leo Varadkar undercuts the entire argument in the crib - though doubtless there'll be an exuse there too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    All the main parties are socially liberal now more than they were in the 80's.

    The conservative vote has not disappeared though.

    What 'personal jibe'?

    And I never said there was a 'relationship', I said they would be more amenable to one than any other party I can see.

    The discomfort pointed to, is very apparent in your inability to read posts properly. Donaldson, as leader of the DUP received applause at a key FG event, it happened and it happened for reasons. You might not like those reasons being 'interrogated' but ho hum TBH.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    What 'personal jibe'?

    The discomfort pointed to, is very apparent in your inability to read posts properly.

    Well that one will do for start. I guess noting the passage of time touched a nerve but you'll find Boards is predominantly old men these days. We're all obsolete.

    Your insistence to read what amounted to a diplomatic speaking engagement as some ideological manifestation or proof of conservative values is borderline histrionic. Doubtless were relations softened enough a DUP leader spoke as a guest at a SF conference there'd be a much different read of things.

    Hilarious on both occasions I challenge this Donaldson appearance, one person quips I must be a closet SF supporter, while the resident SF supporter winks at disgruntled FG supporters having some truths told. Very telling that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Can't address FG issues without a pop at SF. How predictable. SF support will be the last to give the DUP a vote IMO for reasons that should be apparent.

    Nobody is surprised at the embarrassment FG feel about Donaldson's reception.

    No doubt you'll keep trying to ignore the fact that if we rejoin the Commonwealth that it will be most enthusiastically promoted by some in FG and it's support. If somebody in FF was enthusiastic about it as Neale Richmond is for one, would they rise through the party ranks as successfully as he has? I doubt it.
    That is not to deprive Richmond etc of their opinions, they are entitled to them even if I can't support them, I'm just pointing to facts about the party and their possible amenability to DUP and wider Unionism.




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Donaldson, as leader of the DUP received applause at a key FG event, it happened and it happened for reasons.

    Yes, that reason being incredibly basic decorum.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Where's the pop? The reflexive defence where none is needed kinda proves my point, congrats. I think if SF had the DUP as a guest speaker we'd all be happy 'cos it'd say a lot about relations on the island as a whole - but we both know your personal alignment would demand hagiographical applause.

    I've not seen a single credible perspective, only what amounts to political innuendo: references to 40 year old stale outlooks, a wilful ignoring of current standing on social issues - successful ones at that given the referenda - and now speculation about the Commonwealth?

    What it reveals if you obviously haven't attended too many conferences where guest speakers are not necessarily kin with its audience; deriving applause as endorsement is thin gruel for declaring ideological overlaps - but if that's all we have in the entire discussion, it's not much of a discussion to begin with. Again, what did you expect here: Donaldson to be pelted with onions, cos that sure seems to be the only expected outcome.

    Which it never has been; a discussion that is. Suppose it's sexier to chatter about the dreaded FG sharing a bed with the most regressive party in the British Isles, than consider the more prosaic reality the DUP would either cease to be, or roll into whatever minor political backwater party existed at the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,186 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    That's just an anecdote and yes I did live through those times Francie.

    Never mind that divorce was FG policy, and FF opposed it even going to a referendum in the first place. You can say what you like about 70s-80s FF but they were very well aware of what their electorate would or would not support.

    Your last paragraph is just irrelevant bitterness, who on this site is applauding the former DUP leader exactly?

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




    Again, the question asked - In the event of united Ireland could DUP attract a significant vote in the Republic / 26 Counties ?
    I said that I think some FG voters would be amenable to voting for them on social issues.

    Why? Because I think a fair share of the conservative vote here still belongs to FG. Yes FG are more socially liberal than they were but so are all the major parties here. No biggie there. A fair share of the conservative vote belongs to FF too, but as I said the constitutional issue and their republicanism would stop them voting for the DUP. So they aren't a part of the equation here IMO
    You talk about 40 year old stale outlooks but seem to forget that the only political party that campaigned for a No vote in the 2018 referendum was a party founded out of a FG revolt over social issues and that social change caused much rancour within the party even under Fitzgerald. There is IMO a conservative rump within FG. I think many of them contributed to the NO here in my own constituency of Cavan/Monaghan in the 2018 referendum. I'm judging that based on who was campaigning and the less than enthusiastic endorsements coming from their TD's.

    I don't think it can be denied either that the partitionist element, such as it is, votes for FG. Certainly in a UI referendum they would be wanting the same outcome and saying many of the same things as the DUP etc. And I don't think it is any secret that those actually sympathetic to Unionism along the border constituencies are traditionally FG voters. They could certainly be attracted to vote for the DUP if they stood here.

    Those are the grounds for my opinions so maybe actually counter them rather than give another tetchy censorious reply?





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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    See my answer above to Pixelburp. I don't think you can consider FF in the context of the OP.
    P.S. I didn't say anyone here was 'applauding the DUP' although some do stand up for them.
    There are many here though who would align with the DUP on the constitutional issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,713 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    The referendum that was called by and supported by FG ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yes.
    As I said. they have progressive politicians and voters, but that is not the whole story.
    Social change has caused controversy and rancour, expellings and even new political parties down the decades.
    Are we in denial about this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,186 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Renua? Yes it was formed by ex-FGers, and they all lost their seats.

    If that party had been able to attract even a small proportion of FG voters it would have been able to survive.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yes, and Creighton Timmins etc thought they could attract that 'support', because it IS there. You don't start a new party unless you think it can find support.

    That they were not able to is not proof that it doesn't exist and has more to do with how they ran the party.

    Also, some of those people are back in FG, has their conservative outlook changed, could they be attracted to support the DUP if they ran? If they were prepared to start a new party I don't think that would be a big hurdle to jump tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,186 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Oh Francie, give it up will you, it's nonsense and you know it.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The only thing that is 'nonsense' in the OP is the word 'significant'.
    The DUP will be able to attract a vote from the demographic I mentioned, but it won't be significant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    If there was a U.I., and a unionist was brave enough to stand for election in the 26 counties (the point of this thread), do you think they would suffer the same fate as some of the unionists who stuck their head above the parapet the last time ( ie after independence, in the early 1920s?).

    Remember James Sproule Myles in Donegal : he was a TD who was, and I quote "elected on his first attempt at the 1923 general election and was subsequently re-elected six times, winning the greatest number of first preferences in each of the seven elections. "

    That was despite the intimidation and disappearances. Quote: "He was among a group of 40 Unionists kidnapped in February 1922".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Myles



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Great example of what I was saying about the border constituencies. Re-elected to Dáil Eireann 6 times.
    I see no reason why a person of his convictions cannot be elected again, there is a vote there and in Cavan/Monaghan/Leitrim etc that is sympathetic to unionism and would normally go to FG. In my own constituency Heather Humphries would attract a large if not nearly all of it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭combat14


    perhaps a rebranded dup could become the far right party many are looking for in relation to excessive undocumented immigration issues



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