LUAS Network + Future Expansion

Could a Lucan Luas not just go along the N4 for most of the way with buses feeding into it?

Such a waste all those buses travelling long distances.

I'm not a big fan of the Lucan Luas or at least I don't think it should be a priority. For one, I don't think street trams are the correct choice for covering longish commuting distances of 10 or 15km. And secondly there's something that strikes me as vaguely ridiculous that while the city centre is choked with double decker buses we are considering proposals are for building tram infrastructure way outside the core.

I'd build the section from James to Trinity except continue it to Ringsend, to act as a substitute for buses along these streets. Would take a lot of pressure off the Red line where it's most packed - in the centre.

In fact I'd concentrate all new street tram/Luas construction in the core starting with the heaviest Bus corridors with the eventual goal of displacing most buses from the centre completely.

For example, in terms of benefits to the city there's surely a case for Luas along the Dorset St corridor - say from Drumcondra station to Harolds cross vs Christchurch. This is only a bit over 4km but the benefits to the city as a whole would far outweigh the proposed 10km of Luas between James' Hospital and Lucan.

(1) Lucan Luas should use the Chapelizod bypass. The road space will not be needed as we remove cars from the city centre.

(2) James St to Ringsend is definitely a city Luas line that should be built

(3) Drumcondra to Christchurch is an interesting addition I hadn't thought about, but really good

(4) Clongriffin to Blanchardstown via the Airport, interlinking with Dart North, Metro, Luas Finglas and Dart West would be good. The cost of a bridge over the Liffey might prohibit extending it to Adamstown to link with Dart SouthWest

(5) Stephen's Green to Sandyford, through UCD to then allow the upgrade of the Green line to Metro

(6) Cherrywood to Bray.

(7) Hueston to Phoenix Park to Ashtown (link with Dart West) to Dunsink (new town planned by Fingal), across the M50 to Abbotstown linking with (4) above and through Ballycoolin to Tyrellstown and Hollystown.

(8) Fatima to Sandymount, linking with Luas Green, new Luas to UCD and Dart Coastal South.

The GDA transport strategy which has the same projects in it every 5 years and gets slightly less ambitious every 5 years.

Happy Birthday Luas 🎉 🥳

Nice article in the IT, for once!

Respected economists and transport commentators said the new trams would not meet passenger targets, would be “grossly uneconomic” and would probably aggravate, rather than reduce, city congestion by obstructing motorists.....

... In its first year, it broke through its 20 million passengers target by carrying 22 million. Unlike all other public transport services, it required no State subvention, and as for congestion, the culprits were largely single-occupancy vehicles blocking trams carrying hundreds or passengers, not the other way around.

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2024/06/30/the-right-track-luas-celebrates-20th-anniversary-with-passenger-numbers-for-this-year-set-to-hit-50-million/

Here's a flavour of what the LUAS nay-sayers at the Irish Independent thought in 2004 - what visionaries !

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/luas-is-the-expensive-wrong-option-for-all/26011060.html

Colm McCarthy had views as well. (I have bolded some bits of it).

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/economist-casts-doubts-on-the-viability-of-luas-1.1309387

Tim O'Brien
Sat Apr 24 2004 - 01:00

Dublin's Luas system, due to commence operations in nine weeks time, needs to carry a similar amount of passengers as the city's DART system just to cover its operational costs, an economist has claimed.
Luas expects to carry 20 million passengers in its first year of operations at an expected "fare box" revenue of €20 million.
It has also said it expects to pay the international transport operator Connex €20 million a year to run the system.
However, a leading economist, Mr Colm McCarthy, of DKM Consultants, has cast doubt on the viability of the system based on its own projections, pointing out that projected passenger numbers for the two unconnected lines are similar to those for the entire DART system.

Iarnród Éireann has confirmed its DART service between Howth, Malahide, Portmarnock and Greystones carried 21.6 million passengers in 2003.
According to Mr McCarthy, the Luas lines are extremely unlikely to meet their target of 20 million passengers in their first year of operation.
If the target is not met, Luas will potentially be unable to meet its financial obligation to pay Connex its fee of €20 million.
The figures also cast doubt on the financial viability of other extensions of the Luas to Cherrywood and the Docklands, for which private sector companies in the vicinity of the lines have been required to contribute.
Commenting after the British National Audit Office reported new tram lines across the UK had failed to achieve predicted passenger numbers - sometimes by 45 per cent - Mr McCarthy said difficulties with such systems were now "a worldwide phenomena".
Speaking to The Irish Times, Mr McCarthy said the real equation "is that trams generally cost twice as much, take twice as long and carry half the numbers, and this has been borne out by experience right across the world".
Asked if there was any reason to imagine that the Republic could be more accurate in its projections, Mr McCarthy insisted that Luas was already over-budget and over-time.
"Two legs of the treble are already up. I would love to be able to say that this is only 'mickology' but it is a worldwide thing."
However, Mr Ger Hannon, from the Light Rail Procurement Agency, said the agency was tired of hearing that Luas was over-budget and late.
He insisted that the system's passenger targets were to the highest international standards, and added that the Government had accepted that from the moment the contract was signed to the present, Luas was on budget.
As regards time, he conceded that the system may be about eight weeks off schedule.
Mr Hannon also insisted that the agency's estimates for passenger numbers were conservative, with eight million or nine million on line B, the Green Line to Sandyford; and 12 or 13 million on the Tallaght line in the first year of operation.

Do the appropriate state agencies not reply to these lies in the media?

They should be calling out these liars at every opportunity to through their own social media channels and by replying to the “newspapers”.

There needs to be a major pushback against this type of propaganda.

…and now we have a passenger cap at the Airport because we have no Metro - which is great for an island economy 🙄

I don't think we're meant to look back at what economists said and then compare it to the actual outcome. It makes them look like a waste of space and money.

Looks like TII have been getting the crayons out…

I think even insomewhere like France they'd consider that a little ambitious for 5 and a half years, but 2040 would be the goal for that anywhere else

That seems to show a route going up through Stoneybatter and then up the Navan Road. Manor Street isn't exactly the widest street in the world so I imagine you'd have to at least make it one way for cars if not fully remove them. Interesting - I wonder how feasible that really is.

Also where is that branch going away from Bray supposed to go to?

Hopefully this is updated to consider the current landscape, which was very very different back then. With private traffic already removed from College Green and more restrictions due, the case is much stronger for a spur from James down to College Green. It would be far less disruptive during construction than would have been considered in the 2000s - granted, I'm not sure what exactly drove previous decisions on the optimal route.

Obviously both spurs should be built, but the spur down to College Green will relieve enormous pressure off the Red Line.

A park and ride away from Bray at Fassaroe I assume.

I’d personally have liked it had gone a bit further down the N11 and got closer to West Greystones.

I understand the complaints about lengthy Light Rail lines but I think we also need to move away from the idea that all lines get to the city centre (orbital suggests that).

A lot of traffic needs to be removed from both Bray and Greystones given the population explosion of both (I’d like to ultimately see some kind of congestion charge in those places for non residents). You’re also helping Wicklow and Wexford people by putting in direct accessibility to UCD (hopefully) and Sandyford.

I suspect with over 60 mins likely from Bray Station for the Luas that most would still use the DART for the city centre and even the 145 / 84x.

A luas from St James to Dame St could turn onto George's St and either continue to Rathmines or head towards Ballsbridge.

But still I'd prefer to see a Lucan to Ringsend meteoline, to really provide east West capacity. Actually both would be ideal hard to see either happening until we have some real radical changes in planning and public transport spending.

All those long and winding radial tram routes, ignoring the (potential and planned) much high capacity and faster heavy rail and (planned) metro routes. Bizarre if you ask me. Fair enough if there is a possible highly segregated corridor available but that's not the case in most of these examples and there are no plans to segregate the lines in the city centre anyway. The orbital Luas routes feeding in to heavy rail and metro make a lot more sense to me.

Money is finite but I believe you would deliver far more bang for the buck with a metro line out through the south west of the city (as well as upgrading the Green line) and then feeding passengers on shorter orbital trams (and buses) into these very high capacity, frequency and speed lines.

I won't lose too much sleep over this vision though. It'll almost certainly not materialise.

Yes, it would be great if the traffic reduction plans for the centre were followed with a couple of branches of the existing red/green lines that take varying routes around the centre. This is how other cities with "lots of tram lines" operate.

Building tram lines in the centre is really expensive because of the underground services that have to be found and moved first, but perhaps, as part of a more general street improvement project, this relocation could be done in advance. Even if no tram is laid there later, it would dramatically reduce disruption to traffic when gas/electricity/water/telecoms maintenance is needed later.

Definitely post-T42, the priority should be getting buses out of the centre of the city. Currently living away from Dublin, it's something I never noticed in my years living there but whenever I return, it's striking how damaging having queues of slow moving tall and heavy vehicles is to the urban environment. Everywhere in the city adjacent to heavy flows of buses is unpleasant for pedestrians and cyclists (particularly). And it's about the least efficient use of double decker buses having them crawl through busy city streets. And despite so much street space being provided to them in the city core, they're not much use in terms of hop-on/hop-off to get around the centre since the dwell times are so long and most of the available seating involves navigating a one-way single stairwell.

Long term the goal should be to build a network of tramlines criss-crossing between the canals and have all outer bus passengers transfer to trams at interchanges to get into the centre. The last time I used buses was in Amsterdam and this is how it worked and it's fine - you get off a bus somewhere away from the centre and wait a few minutes at the same platform for the next tram. Amsterdam has plenty of lowish density suburbs, particularly in the south which are served by buses.

Only then, having provided decent tram capacity in the centre of Dublin, should outer extensions be considered. I'd park metrowest, most of Lucan luas and extending the green line further to Bray (the first extension was already a mistake in my opinion) until the core is sorted out. The network should be extended outward in steps from the core, not the periphery, along the busier bus routes, where heavy rail or metro is not an option or justified.

The displaced buses can do what buses do best, provide services in low density suburbs and provide dense connectivity with rail services whether heavy, metro or trams. Despite the NTA being ultimately in charge, PT in Dublin has not been integrated aggressively enough - buses, Luas and DART/Commuter are seen as alternatives instead of being used to each's strength in a complimentary way.

Why doesn't saggart have a park and ride. It's the terminus stop and would be ideal for commuter to leave car if built

Probably at 15x the cost though!!..

Why would you stop 1km from UCD?

Interesting.

Like the Yellow suggestion, could be extended from Zoo to Ashtown to meet the rail and other Luas line there. Could also be extended from Kilmainham to Lucan as an alternative to current Lucan Luas plan.

With Metrolink stopping at Whitehall, not sure how much demand for the Northside aspect of that line. Might be better starting East at Parnell Park, travelling down Malahide Road, then Griffith Avenue before following the rest of your route.

Purple, as said already should extend to UCD and use the Eastern bypass reservation to Sandyford. At the other end as mentioned above, from Ashtown out to Dunsink, across the M50 to Abbotstown, Ballycoolin, Tyrellstown and Hollystown.