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In the event of united Ireland could DUP attract a significant vote in the Republic / 26 Counties ?

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    We have hard right parties here already, none of whom have made any inroads off the back of anti-migrant sentiment. So "many" is being charitable, notwithstanding the attempt to derail the conversation in the Pavlovian topic du jour.

    Post edited by pixelburp on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    James Sproule Myles was an exceptional person though. He served in WW1, won a military medal and reached the rank of major. He refused to be intimidated, even though he was among a group of 40 Unionists kidnapped by Republicans in February 1922, with some others "disappeared".

    Much more likely if there was a U.I. that any DUP person standing for election in the 26 counties would be intimidated, if not disappeared. Interested you mention a FG politician in Monaghan, it is in my living memory that another FG politician (Billy Fox) was killed by Republicans there and his girlfriends family home burnt, after their family bible was symbolically burnt. Even though he was Fine Gael, he was called a B Special and other names by FF ministers in the Dail, who were forced to apologise. If Republicans did that to a FG protestant when the south was trying to woo the north, what do you think they would be capable of doing to a DUP protestant in a U.I.?

    Be realistic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    em…republicans in a UI would have gotten what they want by democratic means.

    The War of Independence and the conflict/war more recently are long over,
    Unless the DUP were intent on reviving their paramilitary wing there is zero reason to see a return to violence.

    Realistically.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Much more likely if there was a U.I. that any DUP person standing for election in the 26 counties would be intimidated, if not disappeared

    Jesus wept. If there was a UI, then unless said DUP candidates were violent belligerents themselves there's no reason to think even running would cause their disappearance. In this hypothetical scenario the North joined by democratic consent - clearly sectarianism hasn't lasted.

    This thread has been the funniest stretch of histrionic theorising; and I take back my chiding of the 1980s as too historical to be of value - if now the 1920s are given over as testimony.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This thread has been the funniest stretch of histrionic theorising;

    The DUP will almost certainly stand candidates in the former border constituencies of a UI and they will pick up votes from those who up to now vote mostly for FG. There is also a demographic throughout the country that will be attracted to their conservative, fundamentalist offerings.

    Can you counter that or are you just going to continue with trying to stop the discussion?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    You've shown no evidence of these floating voters beyond the worse kind of conjecture. Your contention depends entirely on the continued existence of a party whose prior raison d'etre was as a belligerent entity in the North, and little else. As continued to be demonstrated by their rank inability to govern today in the here & now. I see no reason to believe the Democratic Unionist Party would even exist in this hypothetical - hence the notion its members would simply wander into whatever small social conservative party exists and not FG, who are demonstrably socially liberal ATM.

    And clearly I can't stop anything, if the segues contain such muscle popping stretches going on. Why would I stop that which I find so hilarious?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What do you mean ‘I haven’t shown’?

    Who else do the members of the OO in border constituencies vote for other than FG?

    And why wouldn’t some of the conservative voters not vote for a party offering fundamentalist values that the DUP offer?

    Sure the DUP might not survive but the OP assumes that they do. Wether they do or not that demographic they represent is not going anywhere.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Same reason they didn't vote for Renua or Aontú or any of the other socially right wing crackpots.

    You are displaying about as much political sense as the people constantly decrying Ireland needs a new right-wing party and refusing to engage with the reasons the previous 20 all failed. The idea that there is some cohort of voters (and you seem desperate to suggest it is FG voters) secretly wanting regressive stances on abortion, gay marriage etc as represented by the DUP is fantasy stuff based on absolutely nothing except vague assertions from you about life in the 80s.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    We're now dealing with the Orange Order? Okay, I mean, hypothetical upon hypotheticals: considering as of 2022 there were only 30,000 left, down from 100,000 60 years prior, then it seems a fair guess this niche demographic will only become even smaller by the time of this fictional UI scenario. Time will do most of the work it seems, going by the faces seen at contemporary parades.

    You seem fixated on FG being the one-stop shop for conservative voters, despite no strong evidence indicating a broad trend in this direction. Quite the opposite really, given FG's stance on every major socially liberal talking pint of the last 10 to 20 years. If anything they probably shed conservative voters because of the party's position with gay marriage and abortion.

    Nor can we see a ravenous appetite for socially conservative parties in general - more critically TBH to the entire topic. Why, given the actual social conservatives down here have routinely failed to make inroads in politics, would the DUP find success where others have failed?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well OO was shorthand for those who celebrate the 12th and the culture. They may not be fully fledged members but they are sizeable in number and almost exclusively vote for FG.

    Again you aren’t reading posts correctly or keeping the OP in mind.
    I have already said FF conservatives would be much less likely to vote for the DUP because of their republican ethos. I am not fixated on FG just dealing with realistic possibilities.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I'm aware of the OP, but have ignored by dint of its naked prejudicial slant, something we've all moved away from, given few here share its lament. It wouldn't be a day ending in Y if Boards didn't have someone bemoaning the lack of a Hard Right party (running the country).

    Ah now, don't back-trac or shift goal posts: you have mentioned FG consistently and let's not forget you were happy to through around the Donaldson speech as ammunition of some secret ideology; we can also read very well so let's not pretend you didn't really try to make some DUP-adjacent credentials stick by way of conjecture and when that didn't work, changed tack.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    eh?
    I ruled out FF ages ago. If anything your back went up as soon as FG were mentioned.
    I haven’t switched tack, i absolutely believe Donaldson was there because FG is the repository of partitionist and Unionist sympathising votes. That’s just a fact here IMO. It was the beleaguered DUP after Brexit blew up in their faces who cut ties not FG per se.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Sigh. Right back to the wink and nod "why you outraged" nonsense. You tried that already. There's plenty to hang FG with without inventing conspiracy, or implying tacit support when others call out the nonsense of tying them to the DUP.

    That’s just a fact here IMO.

    In your speed to tut bout my comprehension, you might want to pause and think about the meaning of "fact" when coupled with "IMO".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    God do you speak to actual people like that?

    Lecturing without addressing any points made. I’ll leave you at it.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    You have offered no evidence to your points so why do they deserve challenging when the best you offer are vague accusations and ancient personal anecdotes? You extrapolate ideological support through applause without even naming any cliques or politicians at the head of this supposed "unionist sympathising" bloc - how and where can that be reasonably challenged when the notion is so patently ludicrous... especially when considered against the entire, foundational hypothetical of an Ireland that doesn't match the one today - ie, unified one.

    I daresay you're trying to contemplate the DUP "now" entering politics in the republic, and all your biases of existing parties to match, rather than the likely topography of Ireland in .... I dunno, this fantasy 2050 we're talking about. "Unionism" as we know it won't be as it is now, going double for the hardcore.

    Indeed. By all accounts the DUP mightn't exist BEFORE unification, let alone after. Not like it's a party with unstoppable momentum and a canny eye for realpolitik at the moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Conor Cruise O’Brien

    Garret Fitzgerald

    John Bruton

    Frank Feighan

    Charlie Flanagan

    Neale Richmond

    Heather Humpries

    Just a few off the top of my head and you insist there is no evidence of FG affinity with Unionism? Those people are the reason Jeff got an invite in the first place..

    The DUP are still in existence in the OP’s hypothetical. Try and take it onboard. Nobody is making absolutist claims about the future.

    You are having a laugh here or trolling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,249 ✭✭✭✭L1011




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Also, and this is true, he's dead. Much like half the list.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If that helps you to stay in denial of FG being the repository for any unionist affinity in the south, work away.
    As I said and it’s ineresting how vehemently it is claimed to have no meaning, there is a reason a DUP leader was invited to congress. You might not like it but there you go.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭pureza


    I think to be honest,like a lot of these threads,we are all in danger of getting pithy with each other

    Erskine childers was a protestant and so was Hyde before him both FF figures

    John Bruton and Garret Fitzgerald's coffins were draped in tricolours at their funerals which I'm pretty sure no DUP person would ever countenence,not to mention their disdain of that secretariat,the author of which was Fitzgerald

    Famously when Peter Robinson was in a cell after the invasion of clontibret,he refused the tea for fear it was Barry's tea made by a company then owned by the FG minister for foreign affairs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    My partner is a southern Protestant and has zero affinity with unionism like the rest of her Dublin family. You are engaging in stereotyping.
    Anyone who claims an understanding of Irish politics really should know that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭pureza


    Well she/he is in the minority then,becsuse down my way,protestants go North for the 12th,toast the King at Xmas and yes mostly vote FG

    Not a stereotype,just a fact



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Not all of them do even here along the border.
    It is stereotyping to say that because someone is a Protestant that they are a Unionist or OO fan.
    It’s simply intrue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭pureza


    Well its untrue to say all of them if you want to be pedantic,but I didn't say that did I



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You made assumptions based on religion, classic stereotyping.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭pureza


    Absolute nonsense,I spoke anecdote

    You cannot stereotype experience



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You assumed Childers and Hyde had affinity with unionism because they were Protestants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,083 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    His vague assertions are not even based on events from the 1980s. The Alice Glenns of FG were soundly defeated during the 1980s as the Garret Fitzgerald wing took over. It was the 1950s when that side of FG was in ascendancy.

    For some posters, living in the far distant past and basing current views on the far distant past seems to be the norm. It is all fantasy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,422 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What anyone with a proper understanding of Irish politics knows:

    Fine Gael has long had two wings. One is rural, big-farmer oriented and favours conservative economics and social mores. This was the classic Cosgrave party. The other is urban, liberal on social issues, has an economic conscience and currently recognises the need for climate action. This was the just society party epitomised by Garret FitzGerald.

    I guess we can't properly discuss the conjecture in the OP if the thread is going to be bogged down by those in denial of the obvious.

    Here's the basis of my contention:
    I think even today that FG still has two wings on social issues, and that their affinity with unionism mixed with their conservatism would possibly see them giving their votes to a party like the DUP in the future if they were campaigning on social issues or a constitutional change. Unlike the equally conservative wing of FF who would find it hard to support a Unionist party due to their republican DNA.



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