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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,927 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    the flood maps touch the top corner of the site.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,886 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    So can they just realign the site then?



  • Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭specialbyte


    Good coverage here: https://irishcycle.com/2024/07/30/an-bord-pleanala-approves-dart-west-track-upgrade-but-project-is-dead-without-a-depot-to-store-new-train/

    Also hard to see how DART+ West's business case will stand up without a depot to house the trains that will provide greater service. Irish Rail/NTA/Department of Transport might need to do some creative math to get this section past cabinet for tendering approval.



  • Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭The Mathematician


    They didn't pull any punches did they?

    If there really would be a serious problem, then maybe it is just as well to have it sorted at this stage. We don't want the DART to be disrupted every time there is a wet spell of weather, it would be the Ennis line all over again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 457 ✭✭Bodan


    Irish Rail's spokesperson back in 2023 in the Leinster Leader said regarding flooding around the depot

    "The site-specific flood risk assessment (SSFRA) for DART+ West has considered flood risk within the subject area including the lands between Jackson’s Bridge and Kilcock. The assessment has concluded that flooding can be appropriately managed at these locations."

    The spokesperson continued: "Furthermore, the level for level compensatory storage areas have been designed to control flood waters in extreme weather events up to the 1-in -1000 year event (and climate change).

    "It should be noted that the depth of excavation required varies and that the excavation of higher areas will not result in a higher flood level at that location."

    They added: "The compensatory storage shall ensure that there is no increased risk of flooding upstream or downstream outside of the lands acquired, in all events up to and including the 1 in 1000 year event (and climate change).

    "An Bord Pleanála are currently considering the Railway Order application for DART+ West, and have indicated that they will make a decision by December 2023."

    "They will consider all submissions made in reaching this decision, and may decide to undertake an oral hearing to assist in that process," the spokesperson concluded.

    https://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/home/1261743/dart%2B-west-may-lead-to-more-flooding-concerned-kildare-resident-claims.html



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I find out hard to believe that a problem known "from the outset" was not communicated to the applicant at that outset, and had to wait until the final ruling to be disclosed.

    What's more likely for me is that IÉ knew very early on that the depot was at risk of rejection (the ABP report implies that several mitigation plans were rejected, so there has to have been communication). This would suggest that another depot location has at least been investigated already.

    I see I wasn't the only person to pick up on the IÉ spokespersons talking about what would happen with train orders if the Maynooth depot wasn't approved. They clearly knew the was an issue.

    With luck, there's a new depot plan in progress, and it won't delay services: there is a lot of construction involved in West, and building a train depot is the least challenging part of it.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,066 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Very poor article. Journalist fails to understand the implications of dropping the depot from the plan and only mentions it briefly right at the end.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, also 3 days of ABP Oral hearings focused purely on the depot and flooding back in November means they knew it was a major risk. I'd be disappointed if they hadn't been working on Plan B since then.

    Also the talk of extending to Kilcock with a further RO, would suggest to me that the depot might be part of that RO and they were already planning for that. Suddenly the whole Kilcock extension being built in parralel with DART+ West makes a lot of sense.

    The Irish Cycle article above is a must read, there is some shocking stuff there!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,066 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    If only the edge of the depot site is in a flood risk zone, can you not just slightly move the site? Or am I massively oversimplifying?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,282 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    A friend of mine is an engineer for iarnrod eireann and was telling me this ages ago, they can't go ahead with dart expansion as there is nowhere to put the trains. Absolute joke of a country when it comes to public transport.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭DaBluBoi


    How abt building the depot SW of Hazelhatch? Or is that area also flood-prone?



  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    What's the story with the Glasnevin Interchange will that still built as planned?



  • Registered Users Posts: 38 scrabtom


    It's a bit of a disaster but it will be great to finally see some construction started on one of the big projects we're been hearing about for the last decade(s) all the same



  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    They can build it out at Kilcock now a proper station for the town?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,563 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Yes you can engineer a solution with little difficulty in this day and age. A large part of the issue is that the land owner refused to let IÉ do surveys, so much of the design detail was long fingered until after the land was CPO'd. The result is that ABP doesn't consider the preliminary design robust enough. So it's an impossible situation, you need access to the land to do detailed surveys, you can only get that access through owner agreement or cpo and you can only get a cpo with a railway order and you can't get a railway order without a sufficiently robust design.

    The system is ultimately flawed and results in loops of repeat work until folks give up.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The various track works around Glasnevin Junction got the go ahead as planned, however the actual station is part of Metrolink project.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,563 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    There was a depot options selection report where many sites were consideredand. IÉ are scouring that now to look for alternatives. Hazelhatch was rejected on the basis of high flood risk. There is no alternative option ready to go.



  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    'Dinged'. That's one way of putting it. Submitting a new depot plan - another black hole of years before ABP get around to making a decision. Thundering idiocy by Official Ireland, again.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    In this case, the question isn't ABP, it is Irish Rail!

    The ABP Inspectors report is absolutely scathing of IR, they seem to have completely dropped the ball on this:

    Furthermore, the depot location is not one where such development has been planned for in
    any plan. This development also poses a significant flood risk to lands and
    property in the vicinity. I am clearly of the opinion that this site should have been
    rejected early in the consideration of location options for a depot of such strategic
    significance. It should never have proceeded as far as a detailed site specific
    flood risk assessment and been subject to any Justification Test. A depot of such
    strategic transport infrastructure significance did not need to be sited on lands
    that extensively and regularly flood at the geographical end of one of the Dart+
    Programme projects. The depot does not need to be at this location. I cannot
    come to any reasonable understanding as to why the applicant has chosen to
    pursue the depot development at this location when it is evident that the lands
    are prone to extensive and regular flooding. The risks to this important strategic
    infrastructure and the potential for this very substantial development to pose
    significant flood risk beyond the depot lands in order to alleviate flood risk of this
    infrastructure cannot be acceptable. This is not proper planning and sustainable
    development.

    Ouch!!

    And then there is this from further on:

    The Hearing spent the best part of three days discussing the depot. These

    discussions highlighted the deficiencies in information and resulted in the

    applicant having to provide a wide range of information much of which should

    ultimately have been in the application documentation in the first instance. The

    most basic details

    structures proposed

    adjoining lands

    levels

    understanding of the proposed depot site and the access road thereto. Lack of

    information on foundations

    and over basic levels across the site

    impervious area of the site to gauge an understanding of the applicability of

    intended SuDS measures were some of the matters which remain somewhat

    unclear. It was most unsatisfactory having to seek to acquire such details and

    even more so when incorrect information was provided and new details had then

    to be provided at later times. This left interested parties with a very significant

    degree of confusion over what proposed development was ultimately being

    sought. Ongoing questioning and regular acquisition of drawings and other

    documentation from the applicant arising from this lack of information was

    necessary to obtain some degree of clarity on what is intended at the depot site.

    What is most concerning is that it is wholly accepted by the applicant that the site

    for the proposed depot is on Flood Zone A. For the landowners and observers

    ______________________________________________________________________________

    there was evident concern about siting strategic infrastructure of this nature on

    Flood Zone A. I fully concur with the position of the landowners and neighbouring

    property owners. I must seriously question why the applicant considered this

    location for a depot when it was accepted as being in Flood Zone A. Knowing this

    should have resulted in this site’s avoidance. This would have been in

    accordance with the Flood Management Guidelines and would concur with

    proper planning and sustainable development. One does not proceed to try and

    engineer out the evident problems with a site which regularly floods when

    consideration of alternative locations should have been paramount. The applicant

    has reviewed several alternative sites about which there is no understanding if

    any of these alternative locations had any significant flooding issues or concerns.

    An alternative location for the depot is a fundamental requirement for this railway

    development and ultimately for the DART+ Programme. Developing the wrong

    site at the outset must be avoided.

    Seriously it is pretty painful reading.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,886 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Yep, totally IR failings.

    Why would anyone employed in ABP sign it off?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 457 ✭✭Bodan


    That screams Nimbyism , and it will happen wherever they decide to build the depot.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,357 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    FFS. And some people still wonder why Luas and metro link weren't run through Irish Rail.

    Technically, legally speaking, they could fire ahead with what has gotten permission, which I'd be tempted to do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,563 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I hear that is the current thinking. With a view to a new depot project being established. But that means we'll probably have idle new DART lines at least for a period of months if not years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,886 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Be a brave government minister to sign off the expenditure for the project now with a crucial part missing.

    Fwiw, I think they should, but could understand why they wouldn’t.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Not really, building a depot in the middle of an area designated as Flood Zone A, seems very questionable.

    During the oral hearing IR even admitted that the depot could be flooded during a major flooding event!



  • Registered Users Posts: 591 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    What about using the rail yards in Inchicore and near the Port? I'm not saying they're a replacement for the Maynooth depot, but surely there's capacity there for some new Dart trains?..



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,438 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Where exactly was the proposed location?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,927 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Would provide some stabling but not space for maintenance; also they're not electrified and would need planning for same. Expensive and slow to knock together something that doesn't solve all the problems.

    They'll be used for stabling units as they arrive if there's nowhere else to put them / nowhere to use them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Here’s the depot plan as submitted, overlaid on flooding maps sourced from floodinfo.ie

    Blue is flood-prone areas - darker shades are more likely to be flooded than paler shades. The orange area on the planned depot site is a construction compound, and won’t be retained after works are complete. You can see there’s a serious flood risk just east of the depot, but the site itself is not affected based on these maps (I accept that this flooding data could be out of date).

    It’s interesting that the permission only allows rail works as far as the point where the R408 crosses the Royal canal within Maynooth town itself. That is about 2km east of the proposed depot site, so it seems that the issue could be as much with the rail alignment through this area as the location of the depot.

    I wonder is there a possibility to cross to the north side of the canal just outside Maynooth, which would allow the depot to be built on the less flood-prone side of the canal, and then cross back to the south side to re-join the Kilcock track…



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,886 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Somewhere west of Jackson Bridge which is about 3km west of Maynooth station.


    jackson Bridge is part of L5041 road.



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