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Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    I would also argue that being in the era of (maybe overly) strict feasibility and planning means that anyone who gets a feasibility study over the line for a new single track to wherever is likely getting a report back saying "In order to make this route viable, dual tracking and signaling improvements would first be required on line x to achieve suitable service patterns on the new route"

    The country has built basically no new rail, especially not in the era of heavy scrutiny of plans, so its unlikely proposals to fire lines up to Cavan will take top billing. (Not that Cavan doesn't deserve rail access!)



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The Cavan thing is just the wildest part of the strategy. Everything else does make some sense. I'm surprised that the portadown to mullingar thing got included as a brand new line but connecting Cork City to around 50,000 people in nearby towns in West Cork didn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    I'd disagree that it's that wild, Armagh is a pretty big city in NI not to have a railway link, but the line as a whole would provide an entirely separate backbone line to the network rather than having the sole north-south link being the congested coastal route. Adding that line gives options for Derry to Dublin trains via Portadown, alternative route for Belfast trains and just generally not requiring all trains to run via Dublin.

    If built as a modern route to modern standards its not going to be a meandering, painfully slow line, couple it with dualling of the Mullingar to Maynooth line and you've got a fairly good option.

    Compare that to West Cork, yes there are a decent number of people who could be served, but does it serve a greater purpose in the network? It just adds new lines that will probably not even terminate connected to the rest of the network (without tunneling under Cork). Again, not saying it shouldn't happen!

    I think the worst aspect of the AIRR plan is the 'other decarbonised railways', if youre building a new line, electrifying it from the outset is really a drop in the bucket of the total cost, so it would be crazy not to do it. Similarly building new single track lines, modern scoping would probably require you to plan ahead for dualling anyway, so dual sized land take, and dual spaced bridges, if you're going to all that effort (which you should be) then going the whole way, or at least having significant passing loop sections is a no-brainer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41 notJoeJoe


    What I find really stupid is that there's a double-tracked electrified line right from Dublin to Derry - great! Awesome! I'd love that! - but then they build a single-tracked unelectrified line to Letterkenny...? So Letterkenny-Dublin/Belfast services can't happen? Unless the electric trains also carry batteries on board, but only for 30 kilometres of track?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Battery electric hybrids I'd say will definitely feature fairly heavily in the network, full electrification won't happen overnight.

    That line would likely just use spare hybrid stock that will already be available. But yes as a new line from whole cloth, it would be pretty weird not to electrify by default.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,072 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Through running of trains via Derry to Letterkenny would be incredibly difficult. Even getting a line from LK to Derry to terminate in the same station would be incredibly difficult!

    Really though I imagine they just chose minimum option in the report to try get CBA to get a bit closer to 1. For lines where expected service freq is not that high it's likely harder to justify too



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,979 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    they should have just had these as "proposed future lines" and left out the spec, which will be decided closer to the time anyway, if they're ever actually built.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Really is odd because by the time it would be finished, Derry will likely have a population to warrant a commuter rail network to places like Letterkenny and Coleraine, and would need electrification for that.

    The big cost for the line though is getting the line into Letterkenny, as the old alignment is almost entirely gone on both ends. Using Craigavon bridge as would be done before would be impossible, and on the LK side, there is a fairly substantial shopping centre built on the site of the old terminus, and arguably the only real good place for a train station to be given LK's very odd urban landscape.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,771 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Craigavon bridge never carried a line as such, the lower deck was a sort of siding owned by the harbour using to move wagons across the river, the bends on either side were not suitable for a full train.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,008 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Derry-Letterkenny was never well linked from a track layout perspective and, considering that the alignments were narrow gauge anyway, it's probably best to forget they ever existed and plan any future Derry-Letterkenny line completely afresh



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  • Registered Users Posts: 41 notJoeJoe


    I've thought that it might be worth reviving a second terminating station like Foyle Road. A station on the other side of the river, located just south of the railway museum. It would be a far more convenient location than Waterside, and it could specifically be built to take the Dublin-Derry trains. The main downside though is lack of connectivity between a new Foyle Road station and Waterside station. Perhaps they could be linked by a pedestrian subway.

    If I was designing the Letterkenny train station, I'd take the opportunity to knock down the Retail Park and completely redesign the whole area around the station. It'd hopefully be friendlier to pedestrians and cyclists and have all the shops as well as apartments, providing the town with a new neighbourhood. Obviously getting to Sligo would be much more difficult from such a location, but we'll cross that bridge when it comes to it (in 50 years).



  • Registered Users Posts: 41 OisinCooke


    While I see your point here, and it definitely would be easier, the problem with infrastructure in this country is the way everything has been done up until now has been the cheapest, or the easiest way of building things and personally I think for the recommendations in this Review to work properly, we need to make the big bold moves, in the interest of the future of the country and the environment. Build a direct double track electrified spine through the north midlands from Mullingar to Derry via Monaghan Cavan, turnback at Portadowm, Armagh, and Strabane, demolish the museum and reroute the road over Craigavon bridge to have Waterside station be a huge interchange station, and electrify the lines to Letterkenny, Colraine and Limvady. Build DART Underground, quad track the Northern Line, electrify Dublin to Cork, reconnect the Western Rail Corridor, do all the things that we’ll regret not doing in 30 years time and do them well. Money is definitely a constraint for these kinds of things, but definitely as much as it’s been made out to be in the past with such projects. Do them, and do them well while we have the perfect opportunity to do so. The Rail Review needs to be taken seriously, for everyone’s good.



  • Registered Users Posts: 386 ✭✭Ireland trains


    due tomorrow according to IÉ twitter



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Is there any speculation that there will be any material changes in the "official" release vs the draft already published?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,753 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I wouldn't expect anything materially different, no. They don't have the luxury of resources sitting around idle!

    In previous years, most changes between the two versions have been fairly minor.

    Hopefully common sense will prevail in terms of the Northern Line timetable and the 40/20 split which offers the faster journey times will be chosen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    I'd say most interesting part of the official release will be how it offers Labour a platform to say what their plans are in terms of transport investment in NI…



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,753 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The UK Labour Party have nothing to do with it.

    Transport in NI is a devolved matter to the NI Executive.

    We know what is happening with the Enterprise in broad terms - I don’t see that changing from the draft of two hourly initially and then hourly later in the year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,753 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Apologies - I was thinking of the new IE timetable as that’s due out anytime now too!

    But the comment would be the same - I wouldn’t expect significant changes from the original, and UK Labour has nothing to do with NI transport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Nothing to do with it other than providing the funding for it... if they wanted it prioritised they could provide funding beyond the Barnett formula



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,519 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    apologies folks I don’t know where else to post this but does anyone know if your travelling from Dublin to Belfast by train, is it Connolly you gGet the enterprise from and do you have to change at Newry?
    I’ve put it into google maps and the Irish rail website and both sites are saying there’s a change.
    I was under the impression I could get a direct train from Dublin to Belfast without changing?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 69,008 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Right now (these weeks/months, not this hour!), the terminal station in Belfast is closed so you're changing to bus at Newry.

    Normally it is one train.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,631 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Precisely. The Barnett formula only sets a general minimum, and central government can provide once-off grants for specific purposes.

    Sadly, however, it appears that the last lot over there blew all the money on coke and hookers culture wars, contracts for their chums, and flying refugees to Rwanda, so any largesse from Labour is unlikely until they can mop up that mess...



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    The Labour government is laying the groundwork over the last few days for cutting any forms of spending they can, with several infrastructure projects already being cancelled and all others being "reviewed".

    Rail transport in NI won't be anywhere near a priority for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,753 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Not a hope.

    They’re cutting everything including rail investment across GB.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,631 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Right now, yes, I agree. In five years, though, maybe not.

    Rail is being re-nationalised in the UK, in that existing operator contracts will not be re-tendered when they expire. That will make it possible to start investing again. The structure that the UK used to privatise rail was a disaster that managed to combine the worst aspects of a nationalised monopoly with the worst aspects of private enterprise… you ended up with a collection of regional monopolists shaving operations costs to the bone while inflating fares in pursuit of profit: there was no incentive for investment at all.

    (To see how rail liberalisation should work, look at Italy or Spain)



  • Registered Users Posts: 686 ✭✭✭ricimaki




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Lol, their plans for NI are managed decline only.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,892 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Given that nothing had happened with the rest of the Navan line in almost 14 years, I’ll take their plans with a pinch of salt.

    Probably some easy wins like Athlone-Mullingar and Navan-Drogheda there, but even connecting the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines is hard to see happening. Unlike in any other actual functioning country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    If even half of these measures are actually implemented it'd represent just about the most ambitious rail investment in the western world in a relatively short period of time.

    Ireland delivered one of the world's most ambitious motorway building programs, about 1,000km delivered in a decade and giving us one of the highest amount of kms of motorway per head of population in the world. If we could replicate that energy on the railways that'd be great but it just seems like it's harder to do things now. Maybe less resources and stricter rules are the main reasons. Still, I think if we got the ABP/JR mess sorted out we could deliver an excellent railway just like the motorway network.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭csirl


    Election coming so the Government announces loads of shiny new projects........which will never materialise after the election. Most of this plan has been announced multiple times in recent decades with zero progress to date.



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