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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭drury..


    Misinformation and malinformation in this post .

    1.Name the many posters who believe baileys guilty because the family believe it ?

    You must have an idea , you say there's many .

    It's certainly not me .

    2. Can you quote where the family state they don't believe what the gardai told them?

    3. Who are the posters who believe that bailey is guilty simply because the gardai says it was so ?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Misinformation and malinformation in this post .

    1.Name the many posters who believe baileys guilty because the family believe it ?

    I'm not going to go back through the thread just to placate the likes of you but it's there!

    You must have an idea , you say there's many .

    I didn't say it was many but reading comprehension may not be your forte!

    It's certainly not me .

    Did I even suggest it was?

    2. Can you quote where the family state they don't believe what the gardai told them?

    I didn't state that the family don't believe the gardai but again your reading comprehension is not your forte. I said the following (with new emphasis)…

    Given that the family now seem to not believe what AGS have told them

    3. Who are the posters who believe that bailey is guilty simply because the gardai says it was so ?

    Again, read back through the thread if you want the details



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭drury..


    About what id expect from you

    You can't back up any of your statements and are continuing to manipulate the truth

    My point stands you're deliberately spreading misinformation and malinformation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭drury..


    It's actually quite subtle and clever the way you distort the truth to make your arguments



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭drury..


    I'll just go with 1 example of your outright distortion of truth as it would be exhausting to debate ad nauseum with a poster like you.

    Your quotes below :

    1. "Many of those here who were convinced of Bailey's guilt were of the belief because the family also held that belief."

    2. "I didn't say it was many but reading comprehension may not be your forte!"

    So your first sentence . It unequivocally infers that many posters here believe bailey is guilty because the family believe same

    Second sentence . Your back with a bad faith argument that you didn't say there was many

    Your statement that the family now seem not to believe what AGS told them is flat out malinformation



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I'll just go with 1 example of your outright distortion of truth as it would be exhausting to debate ad nauseum with a poster like you.

    Your quotes below :

    1. "Many of those here who were convinced of Bailey's guilt were of the belief because the family also held that belief."

    2. "I didn't say it was many but reading comprehension may not be your forte!"

    So your first sentence . It unequivocally infers that many posters here believe bailey is guilty because the family believe same

    Second sentence . Your back with a bad faith argument that you didn't say there was many

    You are confusing the word "many" on its own with many in relation to a small group. I corrected you on this but it is basic English and I really shouldn't have to point out the difference!

    Your statement that the family now seem not to believe what AGS told them is flat out malinformation

    It is clear that AGS solely believed that it was Bailey given that this was the only person on whom they submitted files to the DPP. Our understanding is that they also sent the French magistrate details on Bailey only and not on any other suspect (plus my recollection is that the French trial did not make any reference to any other suspect).

    However, the family who up-to-now were convinced of Bailey's guilt as per many media interviews. Now the family, as per the recent Indo article, invited @bjsc to their campaign to look into other potential suspects "for the truth about her death". Sophie's uncle even says in the article:

    “We want to have different points of view because it is absolutely fundamental to get the truth. What happened that day? In which circumstances did she lose her life?”

    The reality is now clear that the family do not believe what they've been told by AGS!

    So I'll aks you again, where was I acting in bad faith?
    Where is the misinformation?
    Where is the malinformation?



  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭head82


    If this is true and can be proven… AGS witholding evidence pertaining to other suspects.. would this not mean Baileys conviction in a French court could be overturned? I'm not claiming he should be found 'innocent' but if the full facts as known at the time were not provided it should at least warrant a mistrial.

    I know this is all moot at this stage considering the man is dead but in the interest of justice and all that…



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    We don't know what, if any, evidence AGS had on other suspects.
    However, there are clear indications that evidence was tampered with e.g. the missing pages from the Garda Jobs Book, missing evidence e.g. the wine bottle, Bailey's clothes, etc. So even using modern techniques, we cannot use them to say whether Bailey was or was not the killer

    A finding that AGS misled a foreign trial would be very embarrasing for AGS and the Irish judicial system (& DoJ) and for that reason, I can't see it being formally admitted by either body



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 207 ✭✭jesuisjuste


    People seem to get hung up on whether there should be a specific suspect for every piece of evidence. In most murder cases the evidence is tied to the murderer and/or their associates. There is a bunch of evidence in this case that has been released, some of which was held back for some time, and I think it is a fair assumption that there is further evidence that has not released, and perhaps even evidence that has been suppressed permanently/destroyed. Whether that evidence points to an 'unknown' suspect or a 'known and named' suspect in the gardai logs, has not been determined. Some may also have been unrelated to the crime.

    Examples:

    1. Boot prints on ground
    2. Fingermarks in the home
    3. DNA on Sophie's boot
    4. Tire tracks

    Somebody that was not Bailey, and not Sophie, made these pieces of evidence. If left by the same person, when all are looked at together it would be a slam dunk case against whoever caused them, if they could not explain their whereabouts at the time of the crime. Even with an alibi I would imagine it would be a cause for arrest and further questioning at a minimum, perhaps likely even the DPP may prosecute if the alibi was at all questionable, and they could have their day in court.

    What else do they have in the Garda file, what was removed?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 207 ✭✭jesuisjuste


    It's highly commendable to share your findings with ASSOPH, they deserve to know the whole truth, wherever that leads, and get true closure, bravo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭bjsc


    Thank you. I feel so honoured that they want to work with me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Baz Richardson


    He may name dead people as persons of interest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Evergreen_7


    you can’t be charged for slander of the dead.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Baz Richardson


    "Chappuis cited pathology reports on her stomach contents of fruit, and possibly nuts, which her family confirmed she ate for breakfast"

    I have never read anywhere that the family had confirmed this, this is a very significant point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,418 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Ah I think it should be read as, her family confirmed that as food she typically consumed for breakfast.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Baz Richardson


    To clarify, yes that is how I read it (being typical not actual), but I can see it being ambiguous!

    I had not read anywhere that the family said it was typical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭bjsc


    What the family said to me was that it would be typically what she would snack on for breakfast. W



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Baz Richardson


    Surely this question would have come up after the post-mortem results? Do you know if it did at the time?



  • Registered Users Posts: 45 irishspiderplant


    Also a friend of Sophie’s confirmed that it was her habit in the morning to put on her boots because the tiles were cold. I only recently learned this.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭bjsc


    I don't know if that question was ever asked. The full post mortem report was not completed until some time after Bailey's first arrest. Harbison describes the stomach contents and then puts the time of death as between 2 and 3 hours after she had eaten. Given the sighting at Kealfadda Bridge, which AGS were relying on, that would place the time of her last meal at between 11.30pm and 00.30 am. A time when, according to her husband, she was already in bed. Given that he also said that she would often have bread and cheese with red wine in the evening (all of which were in the house) no trace of those was found in her system.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Baz Richardson


    Thank you for taking the time to reply. Is there any indication from family what time she would wake for breakfast?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,665 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    In the house, the guards found a loaf of bread with a slice cut from it, but there was no sign of this in the stomach contents.

    Sophie had bought cheese at a deli the previous day, and a used wineglass was found on the mantelpiece.

    So it does appear likely that she had her usual light supper before going to bed.

    She had mandarins and muesli in the house…typical breakfast ingredients, - and similar to what WAS found in her stomach.

    None of this is proof of anything but to my mind it is all very suggestive that death did NOT happen at 3 am, but early next morning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users Posts: 45 irishspiderplant


    when we take into account the damage done to the pump house in order to retrieve the block, the murderer seemingly going all the way up the hill to Sophie’s house and leaving a bloodstain on the door, the bottle of wine discarded in a ditch some way down the road, and the fact that briar stems appear to have been snipped around Sophie in order to pull her free and kill her with the block (can’t link but Phil Mathers in Murder at the Cottage subreddit has a thread on this), it seems to point to the murderer hanging around the property for quite some some afterwards rather than making a hasty getaway. Potentially for an hour or two.



  • Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭bjsc


    There are actually 2 blocks missing from the pump house and the blood pattern analysis on the one found by Sophie’s body suggests very strongly that it was already in situ when she was killed. The wine bottle wasn't found until 4 months after the murder and it has never been established where it originated from. And there is no evidence whatsoever that the briars were snipped.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,796 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    And why not take the nearest block, why go round the side of the pumphouse to take one from the back wall?

    The gate closed onto the corner of the pumphouse where the block is alleged to have come from, there was a spot of Sophie's blood on a stone just where the gate would pass when opening or closing. Was there a struggle, pushing and pulling there, that may have dislodged the block?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,796 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Forgot sketch,



  • Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭PolicemanFox


    In the photos, we can see 4 sides of the block and there are clear blood marks visible on all of them including in the orifices where it looks like the block was lifted using bloody hands or gloves. When you consider this together with the fact that the blue dressing gown was partially under the block when the body was discovered. So it must have been lifted and placed there by the killer, I cannot see how you could maintain the concrete block was in situ when she was killed. It doesn't make logical sense to me. Maybe you mean it was already lying around by the gate before the assault? I think it is obvious it came from the pumphouse, but I would be interested to hear your analysis.

    The reddit thread about briar stems is linked below. In the photo it does look "snipped".

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderAtTheCottage/s/Ygh2G2Mr4R



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I have spoken to various doctors / GPs whom I know personally about this case.

    They all stated that any qualified doctor would have been able to diagnose the time of death in Sophie's case to around 2 hours or less, like 1 hour or 30 minutes, even if the body had been out in the cold overnight. So any physician should have been able to state whether it was more around midnight or morning.

    There would not have to have been a long wait for the pathologist from Dublin to arrive at the scene and attempt to diagnose the time of death.

    The stomach contents would certainly suggest an early morning death, rather than at or around midnight.



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