Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

DART+ (DART Expansion)

1345346348350351354

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    For what it’s worth, I think IÉ will proceed with electrification, because it needs to be done eventually, they have the budget for it now, and there’s no guarantee that money will be available in future.

    Also, DART+ Southwest depends on the section from Glasnevin Junction to Docklands being electrified, so that work must happen or SW will also be left incomplete. (According to IÉ, there is some depot space at Inchicore, but not enough for both W and SW)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Bodan


    Thats interesting because there is largely nothing there in the plans



  • Registered Users Posts: 9 oliver_murray


    Would the Bemu's be stored in Drogheda for Dart to Drogheda meaning Clontarf depot could be used for Dart+ west and southwest in the meantime while they sort out the Maynooth Depot, or would there still not be enough space to allow for the proposed capacity upgrade for both Dart + west and southwest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,123 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    I’d be asking whether even Drogheda goes ahead now. The reason being that if IE are stuck with just replacing the 8100s because of lack of depot space, extending the line with the same number of units would probably result in a reduction of frequency.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Interesting, from the posts above I had expected it to be far more adversely effected, but as you say, maybe the flood predictions are out of date?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    DART+ Coastal is the least dependent on Maynooth. The Drogheda depot is being electrified, and will house some of the new trains. The rest of the additional DART+ Coastal stock will be housed at Fairview depot.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The extra trains on the Northern line are going to be stabled at Drogheda Depot (and Clongriffin, Malahide, etc.), so it will have no impact on Dart+ North project.



  • Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Is the second order of dart trains enough to cover Maynooth services to their current extent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    @prunudo , @Bodan - yes, it does seem that the depot itself is well clear of the predicted flood areas. Either there’s been a newer, and far more pessimistic, forecast done, or the real issue is not the depot, but running a new rail line from Maynooth to that depot through the middle of an area that floods regularly.

    The existing line has the exact same problem, of course, but if IÉ are going to the trouble of moving the line here, it does seem a little odd to rebuild it within the same floodplain…



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The forecast was actually done by IR themselves and they identified the risk of fluvial flooding on the site:

    https://www.dartplus.ie/S3mvc/media/DART-West-Railway-Order/4%20EIAR/Volume%204%20Appendices/Chapter%2003%20Alternatives/A3-4-Depot-Site-Selection-Supplementary-Report.pdf

    It goes on to say:

    The detailed flood risk assessment examined the full extent of the site of Jackson’s bridge and the proposed
    depot and confirmed that although the proposed site of the depot is higher than that at Jackson’s Bridge some
    fluvial flooding is evident along the alignment of an historic watercourse. The watercourse passed under the
    footprint of the proposed depot at one time but, does not currently as it was realigned along the southern
    extremity of the site for agricultural purposes. The detailed flood assessment determined that as water levels
    rise during flood conditions, flood waters return to their original flow path

    That isn't great.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    Am I reading this right? The DARTs being built in Poland can't be put into service now for years?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,249 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The ones currently being built are replacing the 8100s. They will be depoted at Fairview

    The Maynooth depot would not have come online for years even if granted today.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Plus extra BEMU DART's that will operate out of Drogheda ahead of full electrification.

    It is also possible that if they go head with the electrification of the Maynooth line as was approved today, they could still replace the existing DMU's on the Maynooth line with BEMU/EMU, by operating them out of the existing depots.

    The limitation here is increasing frequency and thus capacity on the Western lines beyond the levels present today.

    BTW BEMU's might be an advantage here, it could give them the flexibility to operate them out of non electrified depots and yards. They might even be able to find space to squeeze a few extra trains in to add some frequency increase ahead of a new depot being built.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I wonder if reducing the size of the depot will help, either making the chosen location more viable or opening up other locations which were previously deemed too small. The maintenance area probably has to remain the same size but could they look to provide more space for overnight stabling elsewhere (Hazelhatch, etc.)?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,819 ✭✭✭thomasj


    RTE updated it's article

    In its decision An Bord Pleanála granted the Railway Order with a number of conditions including that the proposed depot west of Maynooth not be constructed due to concerns about flood risk.

    However Iarnród Éireann said it will explore other options for the construction of a depot.

    "We will immediately consider the requirements to progress this, to deliver the depot in line with the timelines to support the wider DART+ Programme."

    It said work to get construction underway will now commence

    "Iarnród Éireann, in collaboration with the National Transport Authority, will now progress the delivery of the DART+ West project into its construction stage.

    "This will involve procurement processes to engage contractors to undertake the construction activities on the scheme."



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    If you look at the depot options report, there are many other locations that are the relevant size and could do the job, they were judged not as attractive as the Maynooth option for various reasons, but still viable.

    This is part of what the inspector complained about. First, why wasn’t “is the location a flood plain” one of the criteria for the original selection process and once they discovered it was, why didn’t they instead select one of the other options.

    Part of the reason the inspector suggested excluding the depot, was that there are other depot locations they can use instead.

    I’d also point out that the original Depot locations report was relatively narrow in the locations they picked to look at, two at Drogheda, two at Maynooth and two at Hazelhatch , even though there are a couple of other potential locations that I can think of.

    So while all of this is a pain, I’m not as negative about it all as some others here. It is really good news that the rest of the project got approved and they can proceed with that part, it bodes well for the South West and Northern projects getting approval too.

    That just means IR need to take a really good look at the potential depot locations, make sure they get everything right with it and send in a new RO application for it.

    And very good news that construction will start right away on the approved parts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,504 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    I read the decision on Dart+ West on the RTÉ website earlier today. In one way; I was happy to read that most of the project got approval today by ABP and can proceed with construction with IÉ asap. However reading the news about the depot in Maynooth not going to be included in the project left me very surprised and disappointed. I actually couldn't believe that IÉ were trying to build the depot near a flood plain. Has there been any recent data to indicate that there has been significant flooding taking place on the site near Jackson's Bridge from any major storms within the past few months or even up to when the RO was submitted to ABP about 2 years ago?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,862 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Seems like an absolute cluster from Irish Rail to plan a depot on a known flood plain, messing about with diverted watercourses is always a questionable idea to say the least.

    The one immediate question I have that now comes to mind, is there enough space in existing depots that is under electric wires that a DART fleet just to do a like-for-like replacement of the existing 29000 operated service? Or are Maynooths 29000s kept somewhere like Drogheda that won't have electric overhead for some years yet?

    I also noted someone referenced the R408 overbridge as a limit of authorised works, does that mean that IE will not be allowed to put overhead lines over the siding there? (There's a siding in Maynooth that goes about 100-200m beyond that bridge?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It wasn't " a known flood plain" . The flooding risk on the site came to light after the design was done, when the additional environmental reports were being put together for the RO application. Of course it should have been done before, but unfortunately the engineers didn't have access to our genius at the time…

    IÉ had two options : pull the depot from the plans and do another design effort and RO for that, or submit what they had to ABP and offer to add mitigations. The option they took had worked in the past, but in hinsight, they should have also started work on an alternative depot site the moment that the RO was sent in.

    I'm not particularly pessimistic about this. The line works will proceed, and there is time for a new depot to be designed and approved before the line goes live... Worst case is the rail will be electrified but only at existing service levels for the first couple of years.

    Post edited by KrisW1001 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,026 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    is the first order of trains all BEV? Maybe they could install chargers at East Wall and hold them there.

    I assume the reason they didn't propose using East Wall as the depot is that they have their eye on selling the site for redevelopment eventually.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,836 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Yes the first two orders are BEMUs.

    If you mean Fairview, it will still be a light maintenance depot and stabling point going forward.

    There’s no intention to sell that site.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The current order is 37 sets, 31 are BEMU, 6 are EMU only and will be based at Fairview to operate existing DART services.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,026 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I meant the Freight Yard at North Wall which seems to be mostly empty anytime I pass by.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    If they are BEMU's then the depot doesn't need to be under electric wires.

    BTW it is increasingly popular for even EMU's to actually be BEMU's, just with small batteries rather then large batteries. The small batteries are used for regenerative braking and can be used for low speed movements around depots and yards that aren't electrified. I don't know if that is the case for the EMU's we have ordered so far, but I'd guess it could be an option for extra orders, a mini BEMU.

    The Class 777 in the UK is an example of this. The 777/1 are proper BEMU's with big batteries, but even the regular 777 EMU has a small battery:

    This is in addition to the backup battery set that will be fitted to all Class 777 units from new, as these will only have capacity for short-distance low-speed movements around depots and maintenance
    facilities.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_777#Design



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,668 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    This is Ireland there is no possibility of obtaining a site that is 2km long that does not have some flood risk. You'd have to have it up a mountain if that was a design criteria. Even still spot flooding would be possible. We can design attenuation to deal with most flood scenarios, that is standard, particularly on such a large site that must be right beside a canal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭prunudo


    It seems we are in an era when we have too much information, too many reports, too much analysis of sites. Its a wonder anything was ever built in the past.

    Obviously if it shows part of the site could be flooded then put in remedies, but we will never get improvements in infrastructure if they constantly look for the perfect site or conditions.

    I see big fan fair in the media today with Eamon Ryan announcing a new rail plan. But how can we take any of that seriously if they can't even build a depot without delays and issues.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    If you read the inspectors report, the issue was a lack of transparency, documentation and planning for the flooding.

    It seems the original RO documents lacked details on the remedies and actual planning documents on how they would work, how much water they could handle etc.

    During the oral hearings it seems to had to produce a bunch of new documents last minute that the inspector said should have been part of the application from day one and there was still a lot of confusion on how they would work and if they would be sufficient.

    To be honest, it sounds like they didn't do sufficient work on the potential flooding and defences for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭Thunder87


    This is an issue across the developed world, we keep adding more and more and more hurdles and layers of bureaucracy that it totally strangles development and progress. Also the appeals culture that exists in this country means every T needs to be crossed on every report or the whole thing can collapse.

    I'd guess the vast majority of our built environment that exists today was non-compliant with some obscure directive or another but in the past the scales weren't tipped entirely towards paper perfect projects and instead we just got on with it and built things



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,083 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I share your lack of negativity.

    If the problems with the depot were sufficient to render the project impossible ABP would have refused permission for the whole thing. The fact they didn't indicates that they knew the other options could be delivered in a similar timeframe.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    I too share the 'lack of negativity'. Some doomsday-ish opinions going around that this is a complete failure, which will render the entire thing utterly pointless. Which feels a bit much TBH.

    Unlikely the main works will be completed until 2030 at this point, minimum, which is plenty of time to sort out a new site, or alter the plans at Maynooth.



Advertisement