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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,964 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Your post is meaningless without links to what you are talking about.

    Who is the far right and can you give us a links to their posts?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,964 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    They are likely scared a vocal minority will get them sacked for speaking facts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Imane Khelif is not trans, that's correct, but nor was he "born a woman". Like Caster Semenya, she is a male with a male-specific disorder of sexual development that resulted in the genitals remaining indeterminate at birth (testes not descended and malformation of external genitals), such as this: https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/8538/46xy-disorder-of-sex-development .

    a condition in which an individual with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each cell, the pattern normally found in males, have genitalia that is not clearly male or female

    But, like Semenya, the testes were still present, albeit internal and therefore Khelif went through male puberty with all the advantages in terms of muscle mass etc that this entails.

    I don't consider that Khelif is deliberately cheating, in the sense that the problem is medical misdiagnosis at birth/childhood. Nevertheless, the fact remains that physically, putting a woman up against Khelif is the same as having her fight a man. It makes a mockery of the concept of male and female categories. Khelif should be fighting men, or else should just do like the rest of us and accept that we are not Olympic material. There's no shame in that.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,757 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    Who said she was trans? She was disqualified from a final last year for having high testosterone levels. The allegations are that she is intersex.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,360 ✭✭✭plodder


    The IOC only acknowledged that she isn't trans a couple of hours ago. Up to that point they were saying nothing - just that her passport said she is female. They are drip feeding information in damage control mode, it seems.

    RTE even have a report on it, basically questioning the result of the gender test by the IBA, despite quoting the head of the IBA saying she had XY chromosomes. It's easy to throw around claims of "far right disinformation" when confusion and misinformation abounds.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2024/0731/1462837-explained-the-gender-controversy-miring-womens-olympic-boxing/



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 989 ✭✭✭erlichbachman


    This is the kind of media practice that we expect would occur in Putin's Russia, and yet here it is, the woke agenda in practice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,127 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    the International boxing association made a statement yesterday to say that Khelif was not disqualified for Testosterone levels, rather had failed a gender test.

    Gender testing used to be common place in the olympics up until the 80s but was abandoned more recently, hence Khelif managed to get through to and compete in the last olympics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,422 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Since this is something that is an entirely natural (if rare) phenomena you'd have to wonder how many female champions from earlier games had this condition. I remember the former Olympic Champion, Maria Mutola, from Mozambique, looked very much like a man and destroyed her competition back in the day. She never broke the world record but that's held by a Czech athlete from the 80s who was juiced to the gills.

    Coincidentally Mutola went on to work with Caster Semenya who is probably the most famous intersex athlete.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Before DNA tests were a thing, it probably did happen more often than we realize.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,360 ✭✭✭plodder


    No one has said here that the fighter is "a male to female transexual" - we ARE stating that he has male reproductive organs and XY chromosomes and so went through male puberty, bringing greater muscle mass, stronger and denser bones and - for the sport he's in - a longer reach and almost three times the punching power.

    In fairness, we don't actually know what organs she has or to what extent (or if) she went through male puberty. It's bit more complicated with DSDs. In all probability she was raised as a girl because that's how she looked at birth. It's true also that two Irish female boxers have already beaten her in the ring. Though that was in lower weight categories than she is in now. For me it doesn't make any difference anyway. The rules should be based on biological sex imo.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,120 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    There was also the middle distance South African runner Semenya.

    It's definitely a major problem for world sport : anyone overloaded with male chromosomes and hormones (even if supposedly 'naturally' occurring) would have an inbuilt advantage over females, probably similar to the effects of talking performance enhancing drugs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    The effect of undergoing male puberty plus ongoing high testosterone levels is FAR above the effect of taking testosterone for short periods. Indeed male puberty alone, even if testosterone is subsequently artificially lowered, has a significant ongoing effect for the rest of the person's life.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,120 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Personally, I would ban such athletes from competing in international sport - but it is a completely different topic to the whole 'transgender' thing and people having surgery and taking massive amounts of hormones in order to change their gender.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,351 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Yes I agree, and perhaps my twitter algorithm just isn't "far right" enough to see them, but I haven't seen many tweets saying that these are transgender athletes (other than the odd "passer-by" who is happening on this issue for pretty much the first time and hasn't yet got their head around it all).

    What I'm seeing are people explaining that it's ok for Imane Khelif to fight Angela Carini because Khelif is NOT transgender. But that's a false argument IMO, which presumes that opposition to transgender women participating in female categories is based on dislike of trans women, rather than on a desire to protect women.

    IOW, it's exactly the lie that trans rights activists are propagating about women such as Joanne Rowling.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,120 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I'm surprised the IOC didn't spot that allowing 'biological males' into Olympic boxing would be hugely controversial. The aim of the sport is to land as many punches on your opponent and possibly knock them out - the optics of this were always going to be terrible (especially in this enhanced age of social media).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭crusd




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭crusd


    Surely the far right are not spreading disinformation? That never happens



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,345 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    They've been told by the IOC not to say anything about a person's sex. We all have to pretend there's nothing different about these male people competing against females. Pure gaslighting at this stage



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    It is very concerning!

    Currently watching the gymnastics and the women here are unreal - we are fighters, hard as nails at times, able to compete - but men are stronger, faster, punch harder and so competition has to be separated by sex.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,832 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Technically this seems to have happened due to a bureaucracy mess-up. The IBA which was meant to run Olympic boxing had tested and disqualified the two athletes but the IBA itself was then removed from managing the event (qualifying, refereeing, rules) due to concerns with how the IBA was run (related to russian influence) so the IOC stepped in and defaulted to the rules from previous Olympics which allowed them to compete (possibly as they couldn't get all the correct procedures in place in a short amount of time).

    The IOC does not do well at taking criticism (mostly to protect their cronyism) so double down in these cases.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I mean, the whole process used by the IBA is not above question either. They remain a corrupt and unreliable body and this being a personal vendetta seems not beyond the bounds of possibility.

    The IOC's policies around these issues remain pretty terrible ("they both are women on their passports" is not an explanation of anything) but ultimately this is being handled poorly by everyone across the board and you have to feel quite bad for all the athletes involved really. Almost every take I've seen online has been universally terrible and falling back into competing camps. A huge number of people are incorrectly portraying the athletes as trans. It is predominantly the same underlying issue though - how do you treat eligibility for those who have undergone male puberty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭crusd


    No it’s not you with your hysterical nonsense. It’s a person who appeared female when born and was raised female. You should f right off with your wedge nonsense.

    Should they have been allowed compete, probably not, but this is a medical issue around the individuals despite all attempts to equate to the trans issue



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,098 ✭✭✭Augme


    How do you know she has male reproductive organs?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,900 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    you’d have to wonder do they do it for the banter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Real Donald Trump


    I don't know why they do it, maybe it's boredom, nobody should be okay with this whatever your gender or what you identify as.



  • Registered Users Posts: 48 wovay


    Nothing wrong with a bit of humour.

    Potential money spinner here too



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 388 ✭✭highpitcheric


    some are too invested in arguments about the issue.

    So that when a clear example like this comes along they can only double down. The time spent in circular semantic debates, the various incidents of sniping, name calling and banning, would all come back against them.

    Trans people are a third category, and they self identify as such implicitly when they make their flags and talk of new ze pronouns, and talk of their trans rights.

    And its fine. Society can come to some kind of solution with a third category. But the doubling down on being something that theyre not has to stop. We know, they know. They should just own it and get on with it.

    Like the rest of us jacked supermodel hyper athletes. Those are just the cards one was dealt. Get on with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    It would have to be a personal vendetta against an Algerian and a Taiwanese boxer, both of whom do actually look like men. Kind of a weird coincidence if so.

    No I think it's more likely that, while the IBA is undoubtedly corrupt - as is the IOC, TBF - it is unrelated to the gender issue, and the IBA, like most, but by no means all, governing bodies were in the process of repairing the disastrous mistake the IOC made a few years ago when it ditched gender tests (against the wishes of something like 82% of female athletes asked) allowing anyone who identified as female to participate in the female category of their sport.

    As a side effect, this simultaneously removed the thorny issue of how sports bodies should consider DSD/intersex athletes, but it was actually done principally to placate the trans lobby.

    Only of course now that the IBA is no longer accredited by the IOC, there is no world governing body to take the responsibility that the IOC had "bravely" delegated to each sports governing body to make these decisions, so that for boxing, the IOC took no decision at all, and just stuck with the status quo of Tokyo.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Well the Algerian had just defeated a Russian boxer I believe, though I only read that in one location and am unsure of the veracity of it.

    The whole thing remains murky and I don't trust any party involved really.



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