Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

"Last Supper" depiction at Olympics Opening Ceremony

12021222325

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    So if someone portrayed Mohammed as an obese drag queen, nobody could reasonably say that Islam was being mocked?

    Right?

    FFS this is hilarious. I don’t give a hoot about them mocking Christianity, but it is blindingly obvious to me that that’s what it is: it’s a parody of Jesus and his disciples at the last supper, based on a world famous painting so we all get the reference easily . A parody AKA mockery.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,635 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    It was a more general comment, not specifically about this Olympics but thanks for the clarification.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭Gary_dunne


    Well based on where "Jesus" (inverted commas because I don't believe in religion) was born and raised he probably looked more like the person portraying him in the opening ceremony that the 6ft5' white ripped bodied figure in most Churches around Ireland.

    Are we not causing offence by essentially changing his race in all of our art and depictions?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,513 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    Not to be pedantic but the reasons jesus was depicted as white was because during that period europeans would barely have known that other races even existed. It was only during the age of exploration from 1450 onward that explorers, traders and academics began to draw the people they encountered abroad . By that point europe had been firmly established as christian for 850 years. Bit hard to change things with generations of people growing up basing their god understandably on people they see around their culture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,670 ✭✭✭✭osarusan




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,076 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    The point wasn’t an attempt to suggest that the painting predates the events depicted within it (although by the logic employed in Christian theology, Jesus’ apparent ability to predict the future with uncanny accuracy hasn’t shaken your lack of belief either, so I doubt a depiction of Jesus’ predicting his own demise would! 🤔), the point was that if, as you’re maintaining, the painting has some significance or value intrinsic to Christianity, it came pretty late to the party, so late that it has nothing to do with Christianity itself, but was simply inspired by Christianity.

    By extending the logic of your argument to it’s inevitable conclusion then, the depiction of the Last Supper at the Olympics then becomes a work of Christian art itself, as in no way does it mock Christianity -

    Recreating the most iconic image of Christian art with people behaving utterly at odds with Christian values is deliberate mockery.

    You chose not to divulge what your ideas of Christian values are that might support your claims of deliberate mockery, and I chose not to press you on it, because I figure that it’s not I have painted myself into a corner, but that you certainly would should you attempt to describe your impression of Christian values that you claim the performance was at odds with, and I don’t want to put you in that position. Again simply because it just wouldn’t feel right to do so. Such behaviour would be in contradiction of Christian values which Jesus proclaimed that before passing judgement on others, one should remove the beam from their own eye.

    I’m paraphrasing, but your non-belief does explain why you didn’t go with having the scales falling from their eyes in your earlier post about the value of people telling the truth to themselves - it stands to reason you wouldn’t be familiar with the expression, whereas I’d have fcuking ran with it 😂

    To answer your question though - I have picked up a brush, it’s how I discovered I had absolutely no talent whatsoever for creating art either as a means of expressing myself, or as a means of inspiring others, unlike Monet and Degas whose visual impairment gave their works of art their own unique style. That explains why they’re famous and I’m not 😖



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭Gary_dunne


    Yes but we now know what he probably looked like if he ever existed and it certainly isn't what's on display in Churches and continues to be produced today in new statues and paintings.

    Maybe the idea of a 5ft5' middle eastern looking Jesus wouldn't sit well with most religious types though.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,243 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    It wasn't based on the Last Supper. Was Dionysus at the Last Supper? Maybe it was a lot more fun than we've been led to believe.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/29/olympic-last-supper-scene-based-painting-greek-gods-art-experts



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    FFS the press releases from the organisers in advance of the ceremony specifically referenced the Last Supper. I posted a screenshot of a (since deleted) description from France television saying so. They're busy trying to rewrite history now to avoid embarrassment, but that's what happened all the same.

    (Taking a world-famous depiction of the Last Supper and showing Jesus as an obese trans woman DJ, and then putting Dionysis the god of wine as a centre piece on the table to make the LS into a Bacchanalian orgy is exactly why it is a mockery of the Last Supper. Don't you get how references work in the creative arts?)

    ETA: Oh wait:

    Maybe it was a lot more fun than we've been led to believe.

    You do get it really. And yet somehow, you still don't. A refusal to join the dots. I'm seeing religious levels of blind faith here, like back when I was a child and adults believed in holy medals and miracles and that bread became the actual flesh of christ. Or else kept quiet when they didn't.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Who was played by an “obese drag queen”?

    Its wasn’t a parody. It was a homage or possibly a pastiche.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,076 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    They're busy trying to rewrite history now to avoid embarrassment


    Like every good Christian 😏



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Possibly. I don't care. You seem to think I'm offended by the trans DJ. I'm not. I'm just interested in people not replacing the religion that had the country subjugated for decades, possibly centuries, by another religion where we can't tell the truth either.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    The Ricky Gervais quote "Just because you offended, it doesn't mean it was offensive" comes to mind. There was a hell of a lot of Christians in Ireland watching that opening ceremony and a tiny minority seem to be expressing offense on the art piece.

    The last supper has been used in advertising, promotion plenty of times in terms that could be seen as sacrilegious. The sopranos had a poster where Tony Soprano sits in as Jesus, the movie Watchmen had a pregnant lady who was the subject of a S assault in the movie sitting in as Jesus. If people want to be offended by depictions of the last supper painting then they plenty of other pieces to be offended about. But most Christians will not care.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Barbara Butch played Jesus. So she claimed anyway.

    I'm not sure if Butch is trans, though I read she was, but several of the disciples are very obviously trans. Going by her name, maybe she's a butch lesbian instead. Hardly a lot more acceptable to the religion concerned, given their attitude to same sex relationships.

    So if you prefer to answer the question as whether it would be acceptable to have Mohammed played by an obese lesbian, and to call that a pastiche, I'm happy with that.

    And take into account that the artistic director explained that "we are not obliged to be worshippers". I think it's pretty clear that it's not meant to be respectful. Which is fine. But let's be honest about it.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    You're wrong, I think they do care. I'm old enough to remember when christians were seriously offended by things like the Life of Brian and the Meaning of Life and tried very hard to get them banned - but they were (quite rightly) told where to get off, so now they've stopped objecting.

    Turns out that if only they'd murdered a few dozen people, and sent some others into permanent hiding, we would all have known to be far more respectful of christianity. Stupid christians, eh?

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    And to quote Mandy Rice-Davies again, "Well, he would say that wouldn't he ?"



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    So you are not Christian , not offended, but you talk on behalf of offended Christians? I think if so many Christians were offended there would be a tidal wave of criticism that would have resulted in the firing of a number of the event organisers. ireland is a majority Christian yet its only a few posters here that are criticising the act.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,076 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    You’re old enough to remember that, then you’re definitely old enough to remember that it was only a tiny number of Christians who sought to have those depictions banned, and of those Christians, it was mostly those of the Protestant denomination, similar to the way in which during the Reformation, Catholic works of art were destroyed by Protestants hoping to impose their perceived authority on others. It wasn’t the only thing in Catholicism that they rejected.

    You might also remember this debate, though in order to remember it you’d have to have witnessed it in the first instance:

    There was also plenty of appearances by the clergy on programmes like The Late Late Show, in which the Bishops were regularly shown up for the absolute charlatans they were, which is why Catholics in this part of the country at least began to fall away from the Church and the compulsive determination to display a false piety in order to maintain their social status in Irish society as it was then, long before all the stories of the institutional sexual abuse begun to surface in the 90s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Sure. What's your point? The OP here said this:

    OK, it will offend some but I don't have an issue with it except one thing…

    Why is it OK to do this to Christians and not Jews or Muslims?

    If they don't want that question asked why go near it at all?

    Seems one religious cult is fair game and others are not.

    IOW that if anyone had done something similar wrt Islam, their lives would have been at risk. I think that's not only self evidently true, but that this thread also shows that apparently some people are prepared to push self censorship so far that they are happy to pretend to themselves that it isn't true and that they could do something similar in Islam if they only wanted to, but that mysteriously, nobody ever wants to do that.

    Or alternatively, but barely more credibly, there is no issue in the first place because it is not offensive to anyone anyway.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    I think it would be perfectly acceptable. I’m sure some Muslim lads wouldn’t agree, but that’s their problem.

    Butch isn’t trans. But even if she was, she wouldn’t be a drag queen. Drag queens and trans women are different things. Several of the disciples were drag queens, but I’ve no idea if they were trans.

    The world is a far more complicated place than you seem to realise. It’s better not to get offended every time you don’t understand something though.

    A group of people put on a performance that used some elements of the Last Supper painting as inspiration. That’s it. That is all that happened

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    People don’t parody Muslims because it would put their lives at risk. In that case the Muslims who wouldn’t commit the acts of violence are wrong.

    People parody Christianity because it doesn’t put their lives at risk. Not that the opening ceremony was a parody.

    This doesn’t make the parody wrong. It makes the reaction wrong.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    If the majority of Christians are not offended by it then how is it offensive to Christians? The majority of Christians do not appear to believe their religion was being mocked by the act.

    I guess this is disappointing to you as you seem to think they should be offended.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    but that’s their problem.

    That's a tad disingenuous, as the Charlie Hebdo people would no doubt tell you, only they're dead. Or a certain Yorkshire schoolteacher, who is still alive, but hard to get hold of, being in permanent hiding along with his whole family.

    Butch isn’t trans. But even if she was, she wouldn’t be a drag queen. Drag queens and trans women are different things. Several of the disciples were drag queens, but I’ve no idea if they were trans.
    Sure - I realise that.

    The world is a far more complicated place than you seem to realise. It’s better not to get offended every time you don’t understand something though.
    LOL. I'm not offended, as I've said before, and I really don't think I need you to talk down to me to explain the world to me. I'd be willing to bet I have a lot more experience of it than you. I don't know you, so maybe not, but how many languages do you speak and how many countries in the world have you lived/worked in? It would have to be a certain number if you're going to claim to have more experience of different cultures than me.

    A group of people put on a performance that used some elements of the Last Supper painting as inspiration. That’s it. That is all that happened

    I know. That's not in dispute.

    But well done for a classic of mansplaining there. Nice one. 😀

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Clearly it's offensive to SOME christians. I never said it was offensive to ALL. Did I?

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,155 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    But to say it was a mockery of Christianity like that's a given fact but only a minority of the believers of that faith seem to be claiming that. I think if the majority of a religion doesn't believes its a mockery then you are wrong in claiming its a mockery. I think Christians themselves can decide what is or is not a mockery.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    You seem to have great difficulty reading what I've posted. Where have I ever said the parody itself was wrong?

    But I do think that at this point, parodying christianity is akin to "kicking down", because they are such an easy target. Now parodying Islam, that would be brave, which is why they were never going to do that. And I find it odd that some people are so keen to self-censor that they can't even admit that, and are very eager to discourage anybody else from saying it.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    I mean, the organisers implied this themselves, when they said they were free not to be worshippers/believers. They expected (wanted) believers to be annoyed by it. Why are you so determined to pretend otherwise?

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls@UNSRVAW "Very concerned about these statements by the IOC at Paris2024 There are multiple international treaties and national constitutions that specifically refer to#women and their fundamental rights to equality and non-discrimination, so the world has a pretty good idea of what women -and men for that matter- are. Also, how can one assess whether fairness and justice has been reached if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    If you want to have a a cosmopolitan off, you’ve picked the wrong target I’m afraid. I have too much decency to go waving my worldliness around though. That would be silly.

    If you’re not offended, what are you then? You definitely have some beef here.

    “A tad disingenuous”? It isn’t. It’s actually the most straight forward statement anyone can make. The Muslims who committed acts of violence were wrong. It’s really these simple. Anyone who reacts like that is wrong. So it shouldn’t be used as and argument against this performance.

    I’m definitely not “mansplaining”. Don’t be so poxy childish. I disagree with you, stop playing the injured party.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,764 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Is this still being debated?

    Its old news at this stage.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,092 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    Sure the same poster believes that drag queens are offensive to women🙄



Advertisement