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Replacing switched fuse spur going to water pump for smart solution

  • 30-07-2024 1:39pm
    #1
    Spook80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭


    Hi,

    We have a Kikawa water pump to boost water pressure around the house and this is on a switched fuse spur which is left on all the time.

    Id like to replace this with something smart to add to apple HomeKit.

    Does anyone know can if either of these options are ok?

    1. Replace switched fuse spur with single gang socket, add 3 pin plug to pump and buy smart plug.
    2. Meross smart WLAN switch from amazon is only 12.77 and i could add on and leave spur there.
    3. Any other options?

    Thanks a lot



Comments

  • #2
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Replacing the fused spur outlet with a smart device would not be advisable, as this would eliminate the protection provided by the fuse. Typically, these fuses are rated around 3A for a pump of this type. Without the fuse, the upstream protection would rely on the MCB, which is likely rated significantly higher and would not adequately protect the 1.5 mm² cable supplying the pump.

    As the pump is a permanently connected device, it is best practice to supply it through a spur outlet rather than a plug and socket arrangement.

    My recommendation is to retain the spur outlet and use it to feed a device such as a Sonoff TH16 or an equivalent Shelly device.



  • #3
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,679 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    why? Is it not in a demand pump? When it senses water flow it pumps



  • #4
    Spook80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭Spook80


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122471249#Comment_122471249

    I was gonna put the 3 amp fuse in the plug top, would this not offer the same protection?



  • #5
    Spook80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭Spook80


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122472719#Comment_122472719

    In theory yes, it’s an in demand pump. It seems to go off intermittently but only for a second and not consistent enough that i can diagnose easy. I’ve checked the toilets, taps but the problem I’ve paid a plumber twice in the last 6 months and they replaced a valve in the air to water heat pump and it stopped for a while but came back.

    My ambition is definitely to get it fixed properly but it can wake us up in the night at the moment but not go off again till next day which males it impossible to fix.

    I just want to be able to turn it off going to bed and back on in the morning.



  • #6
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122473676#Comment_122473676

    Yes, it would but as sated in my previous post:

    "As the pump is a permanently connected device, it is best practice to supply it through a spur outlet rather than a plug and socket arrangement."

    The same logic applies to other permanently connected devices in the home such as:

    • Gas boiler
    • Intruder alarm

    The above could also be fed from a plug & socket arrangement, but best practice would be not to as they are permanently connected devices.



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  • #7
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,679 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122473708#Comment_122473708

    you may have a leak somewhere. Or a faulty ballcock in the attic or toilet



  • #8
    Spook80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭Spook80


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122473714#Comment_122473714

    Thanks a lot i appreciate your help. I understand that its best practice and providing theres no safety issues then i assume “best practice” is aimed at, as you said things like gas boiler and alarms where you dont want the customer unplugging by accident. In this case i want to be able to switch it off by my phone but was just a bit concerned with safety.



  • #9
    Spook80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭Spook80


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122473773#Comment_122473773

    Yes but its so intermittent it can go hours without a peep and the twice in 15minutes.

    I kinda hope it gets worse and so as to sort it once and for all whether that be a whole new pump or not.

    Thanks for the response.



  • #10
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122474068#Comment_122474068

    A fused spur outlet would be considered to be safer than a plug and socket arrangement. Additionally depending on how the circuit is wired you may not be permitted to install a socket on it.



  • #11
    Shoog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,269 ✭✭✭Shoog


    You could get a smart relay and mount it in the patress in line with the live feed. Very simple to fit. Sonoff do some nice smart relays for small money.

    Still, find your leak is the better solution.



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  • #12
    NewClareman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122477431#Comment_122477431

    Why is a fused spur considered safer than a plug and socket arrangement? I would have thought that the major concern, in either case, would be whether the correct fuse had been fitted.
    I'm not questioning your statement, just wondering on the rationale. :)



  • #13
    Shoog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,269 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122480094#Comment_122480094

    Plugs are simply more prone to damage and arcing - which present a small fire hazard.



  • #14
    NewClareman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122480118#Comment_122480118

    I suspect that Sonoff, or similar inline smart devices, represent a greater safety hazard than a plug and socket with/without a smart adapter. This is particularly true when used with loads, such as pumps and motors, which can have high startup currents. I would be concerned controlling such a load directly, i.e, without using a relay/contactor.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand why fused spurs are recommended for fixed appliances. However, this is the first time I have seen safety as a particular concern.



  • #15
    Shoog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,269 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122480588#Comment_122480588

    Like everything you have to specify the smart relay appropriate to the instantaneous load. They are relay devices and they come in a range of ampages.

    Sonoff are one of the largest smart devices manufacturers in the world and all their components are certificated so I would have few concerns when specified correctly.



  • #16
    NewClareman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    I fully agree with you - installers should specify the smart relay appropriate to the instantaneous load. This speaks directly to my concerns re this technology.

    Many installers: 

    • don't have the expertise to select the appropriate device.
    • don't have the skills to wire it correctly.
    • don't have the knowledge to adequately address fire safety.

    The CE Declaration of Conformity (DOC) is a totally different ballgame. Let's just say that it doesn't guarantee a safe device, or a safe installation.




  • #17
    Shoog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,269 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122480746#Comment_122480746

    You have to assume that people installing these smart controllers are intelligent enough to specify the correct devices. Of course this is not always the case - and I frequently end up recommending people do not touch their electrics when they ask questions which makes it obvious that they don't have that level of knowledge.
    There is nothing complex about reading a spec sheet on two components and marrying them together and it would be wrong to assume that people lack this basic level of skill - its sort of insulting to assume they don't without evidence to the contrary.



  • #18
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    that is why I suggested a Sonoff TG16. This is rated for 16A load, more than enough for the inrush current form a domestic pump.



  • #19
    NewClareman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122481499#Comment_122481499

    I'm not insulting anyone, intentionally or otherwise. The danger is that people tend to overestimate their knowledge and capabilities. Where mains electricity is involved that can have tragic consequences.

    Post edited by NewClareman on


  • #20
    NewClareman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    https://www.boards.ie/profile/225860/2011

    I'm not questioning your recommendation for an instant. I'm more than happy to defer to your knowledge and experience.

    Post edited by NewClareman on


  • #21
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    A time switch might be a simple solution.

    Alternatively, fit an expansion vessel that will stop the pump from turning on for a small quantity of water like a toilet flush or a small leak. 20 litres would be good.

    Anyway, just a suggestion.



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  • #22
    drury..
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭drury..


    Its a problem in general ATM

    People are unwittingly replacing local isolators with a smart control and this doesn't comply with wiring rules

    It's happening with immersion switches a lot from what I see

    Not saying poster is doing that here as he mentioned plug/socket arrangement



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