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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    ART is a gadgetbahn, and the guidance systems are either hugely error prone (optical patches) or surprisingly expensive (radio), and both are trivial to interfere with accidentally, so manual control is frequently needed.

    One recurring problem with guided tyred vehicles is that all roads are designed with the assumption that vehicles don't repeatedly take the exact same path along them. Cities that used rail-guided buses found that the vehicles wore tyre ruts into the road surface within a couple of years, forcing much earlier repair works.

    Not an answer for city bus services in Ireland, I feel. Longer buses of any kind will only work outside our ancient city centres due to the twisty narrow strrets in parts, but they could have a role if we can hand the city centre over to trams and use buses for inner-suburban collection/distribution from that network.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The likes of MMcD see Metrolink as an Airport to CC and no more. Of course, those that live in Swords and work at the Airport, or those that study at DCU or use the connections a CrossGuns or Tara St, or work in the CC will all see it as magnificent improvement.

    However regulars on this thread see it as a major piece of PT that will revolutionise PT in Dublin, particularly in conjunction with Dart+, Busconnects and GL conversion (to be done later).

    MMcD needs to up his game and inform himself. What a plonker.

    Why stay silent and reserve one's council for fear of being considered ignorant - when frequent rants in the IT removes all doubt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,905 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Does MMcD have a weekly column? If so, don’t be surprised if he isn’t actually against it, but just needs that pay cheque.

    Big problem with these weekly/monthly mouthpiece articles is the author needs something to be on yakking on about whether they they believe in it or not.

    Main thing is to expose their ignorance over the topic you care about and they’ll swiftly drop it to keep their credibility up and the cheques rolling in.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I doubt MMcD is in need of any pay cheque. He is 73 years old, is a retired TD and Justice Minister, (both carry generous pensions) and ex AG (so presumably another pension), currently a Senator (so a nice little pay cheque there), and a practising SC.

    He is married to Niamh Brennan who is also well placed.

    He owns a property near Rathmines Luas station that would be affected by Metrolink - not that would affect his opinion about Metrolink as he is a fair minded individual.

    The IT runs frequent articles rubbishing Metrolink - not all by MMcD.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,648 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I do hope he lives to see metrolink being chronically over capacity



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,823 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    That was my own initial reaction, but to be honest, the more I've read about it and watched videos of it in operation, the more I think there might be something there.

    You are correct about previous guidance systems, but the use of modern technology has the potential to overcome many of those issues. The combination of Lidar, radio and modern software automation could make a powerful system. To be honest with software mapping of a route, Lidar and precise positioning systems, there really shouldn't be much need for guidance, optical or radio.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should rush into it, I'd leave the Chinese develop and perfect it, but if we see them mass rolling it out, then it could be an interesting option for some lines.

    I'd point out that 20+ years ago, I remember people being as dismissive of fully automated Metro's like Copenhagen was building and look where we are now, such systems have become the norm for new builds in mid sized cities, like Metrolink.

    This may or may not be a repeat of that, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, I'm keeping an interested eye on how it develops.

    BTW Battery operated wireless trams is also an interesting developing area. Keep in mind I'm talking about the post 2042 Luas Network, lots of technology development between now and then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭gjim


    Not an answer for city bus services in Ireland, I feel. Longer buses of any kind will only work outside our ancient city centres due to the twisty narrow strrets in parts

    There is nothing at all special about the street layout of Irish cities in a European context. In fact, in most cases what is surprising is the almost total lack of any trace of earlier medieval streets and street patterns in Dublin, Cork or Limerick compared to similarly sized cities around Europe.

    Dublin is a product of the wide streets commission and what they didn't flatten, Corporation's traffic engineers bulldozed in the decades after 1950. There is absolutely no shortage of wide straight streets in Dublin. Most European cities, from Spain to Germany have far more issues with narrow and winding streets in the centre and yet long buses are used everywhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,905 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Some people are addicted to the money flowing in as well the ego trip.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I would think it could be both. Certainly ego, and possibly defending his personal vested interests.

    Anyone entering politics does it to massage their ego - although there are a very few who are altruistic and do it to benefit the common good (as they see it).



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,576 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    mcdowell is simply filling the information vacuum that’s been created by the lack of any update by TII.

    I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, TII really should have a PR team in place giving updates on projects to the public so we can all laugh at mcdowells scuttle as opposed to only hearing his side of the (vested interest) argument.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,508 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    It's astounding that we have not had any sort of update since the public consultation hearings ended. It just feeds into the negative narrative that this project has no hope of getting off the ground, which articles such as McDowell's feed off. TII should really get their act together.



  • Registered Users Posts: 46 Thunder87


    I mentioned this a couple of weeks ago but it seems nobody is any the wiser. This is the 5th month since the oral hearing ended and ABP asked them to readvertise the public consultation with the info they submitted during the hearing, presumably a fairly simple ask considering they already had all the documentation at hand and are already world leading experts on public consultations.

    The fact it's taken this long and counting really highlights (not that it really needed any further highlighting!) the complete lack of any accountability or urgency around constant project management failures with this whole thing.

    Deadline after deadline after deadline missed by years all at the taxpayers expense yet I don't think there's been a single explanation given around why we're half a decade behind schedule, just a shrug of the shoulders and "shur its a big project, it'll be grand". If any private sector project was managed this badly those at the top would be pushed aside and replaced multiple times over already



  • Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭VeryOwl


    There's a view that the process has been agonised over to avoid any mistakes.

    But judging by the state DART "+" West emerged from the planning process (also half a decade behind schedule), there's every chance Metrolink similarly emerges from ABP in ruins. The whole thing is a disgrace.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,648 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The biggest hurdle is ABP and the threat of JR. Combined they add years to any major project, the applicant must scramble to make every single individual impacted (real or imaginary impacts) happy. It's just not a system conducive to getting major projects built, it's set up for house extensions, it needs a total tear down and replacement



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,374 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    The Irish Times is representing a core backbone of its readership as well as its editorial staff and commentariat with these articles. It represents a subset of the population that is actively opposed to restrictions on their car use; higher density housing within their Dublin suburbs; and would rather pay less tax than worry about commuting times for people living in outer North Dublin. They may say the right things about climate change, and make sure they are seen washing their yoghurt pots and filling up their green bin - but these are people who fundamentally oppose any material change. They have established themselves in a position of privilege within Irish society, and seek no advancement of the economy or any reduction of our carbon footprint.

    The Metro is fundamentally an inconvenience for these people, something someone else will use to come and go from places they don't care about. And they'd much rather not pay for it.

    So, in summary, the IT is very much deepening its credibility with the subset of the population the paper aims to cater for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭Bodan


    Michael McDowell has form

    In 1996 Michael McDowell said Luas was:an “expensive toy train set that will damage the city rather than improve it and will make it more ugly than it is, leaving the 90 per cent of those who will not live on the Luas corridors more frustrated and angry".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,374 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Track record is irrelevant on this stuff. The same people who opposed the DART, the LUAS, one way system, etc continue to be platformed to complain about the next progressive infrastructure move.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,576 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    But why would TII have any accountability when no one- literally no one bar the people on this thread, are asking where the metrolink project is at since ABP asked them to come back with more info?

    I haven’t even heard any of the transport pressure groups asking questions.
    It’s like everyone is just fatigued now, bar mcdowell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Bsharp


    My understanding is the public consultation on new material is to start in the next two to three weeks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,648 ✭✭✭cgcsb




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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,365 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    I think people are going to be surprised at the amount of stuff this will cover. No insider knowledge or anything, but just an expectation that they'll have crossed every t, and dotted every i.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,085 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Technically, he was right about people not living on the luas corridors being frustrated and angry but that's not because of the luas it is because of the lack of luas/good public transport in their area. A luas/metro/bus corridor in their area would solve that frustration and anger.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,508 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    That is brilliant if that's the case. I was growing increasingly worried that it could be pushed back into next year.

    I wonder how long the process will take?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,648 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It'll be January at the earliest that we get an RO. And we have to hope that ABP doesn't take a hammer to it like they did to DART+



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,905 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Yep, people who don’t live close to the Luas lines are delighted it’s there when they need, but as you say the anger is about the failure to deliver world class PT elsewhere, which is failure on behalf of mainly FF and FG, and not because building the Luas broke the country or anything like that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 OisinCooke


    IÉ were completely at fault with the DART+ West application being delayed and hammered, due to their lack of clear communication regarding many aspects of it, and of course with the depot issue, Metrolink (and TII) seems to have got everything in order (hopefully) so it should be a much smoother road to an RO with this project.

    And the other difference with DART+ and Metrolink is that once an RO is granted, the project can and will almost immediately go to tender, they have a construction and project manager already appointed and it looks like they can get this going pretty quickly.

    There is a chance (not a big one but a chance all the same) that the Metrolink ‘project’ may actually begin so to speak, before DART+…



  • Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Bsharp


    Anyone who made a submission on Metrolink and has been involved in the Oral Hearing process has received recent progress updates on where its at. Due process on the RO is possibly why we're not getting any announcements.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,576 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Don’t answer this if you don’t want to, but where are you getting that info?
    I haven’t seen it on any major news sites?
    Why do TII wanna keep it a secret?



  • Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Bsharp


    https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/314724 details of progress up until 12th June 2024 are up on the ABP website. In the Further Information section. It gives you the understanding that there's been a continuous dialogue between ABP and TII, which is the case (emails and letters back and forth are referenced).

    Updates are provided by ABP to interested parties informing them of same.

    We don't get public announcements because everyone with a direct stake in RO terms is being kept informed (that's my guess).

    So where we are at is the two parties concluding on the Further Information that needs to go back out to public consultation asap.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Surely it can be said that there's been similar shortcomings with the RO application for ML given that it needs to go back to public consultation?



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