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Garden measurement's do not match the reality by 15 sq m

  • 12-08-2024 8:24pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭


    Hi all,

    Hope you are all keeping well.

    I have a quick question:

    Just measured my garden and i am in shock. the planning permission says should be 106 sq m and there are 94.5.

    How can I address this? and where?

    Much appreciated your suggestions.



Best Answer

«13

Answers

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,555 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Too little detail. Is this a new one off house or part of an estate? When did you buy? When was planning granted? Did you buy the site or house and site?

    You need to elaborate a lot more than simply saying your garden is too small and asking what should you do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    thanks muffler. The house is part of an estate. Bought 4 years ago. Planning granted 2004. Bought all together ( house, front garden and back garden).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    The Time to address this if it is was of concern was prior to purchase.

    A 15 sqm difference could be due to house placement on site varying slightly or a rear fence being located inside a rear boundary for example.

    I don't really see this as a major issue and and save for where an obvious discrepancy can be seen versus your registered plot, I don't see an easy route to address this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    thanks. Unfortunately i wasn’t aware of this when purchased the house. I trusted that my solicitor and the surveyor would ve checked all the papers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,623 ✭✭✭JVince


    Maybe your measurements are wrong.

    Certainly your calculation is wrong. Difference between 106 and 94.5 is 11.5

    Figures in planning on garden size is never correct as there can be small variations on placement of the house.

    It has no actual bearing on the title.

    That it has taken you 20 years to notice tells you how unimportant it is



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Check land registry

    landdirect.ie

    Where did you measure from? Mine is from the middle of the road!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    thanks so much. Right, my calculation is wrong, hands up. Purchased the house 4 years and have questioned before the measurements of the garden with my solicitor. Her answer was that i won’t have them as this is not a requirement in Ireland. However i found them in the planning permission application today. Why would they sell 106 sq m on paper however 94.5 in reality??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    i am pretty sure i did the measurements right. I ll have an authorised person doing it as well. Do you know where can address this or with whom???



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,555 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    As stated above this should have been picked up with a pre-purchase survey which your solicitor should have advised you to get carried out. Also as it appears that you werent the first owner of the property the vendor would have been required to furnish a certificate of compliance and identity.

    But as mickdw said there are several reasons why the garden may not have correlated with planning layout. Also Jim_Hodge is correct in that you should check initially on landdirect.ie to see how the boundaries are looking and if necessary order a copy of the map and folio of the property. Costs just €40.

    After you have the map you can arrange to get a digital survey of the property done. An engineer, land surveyor, arch technician etc will do this.

    Finally I cant really see it being an issue on the short term Even if you wanted to extend the house and build a garden shed under the exemptions you will still have in excess of 25 m2 remaining which is a condition of exempted development for extensions and sheds. The only problem you would likely face is if you ever were to sell in the future. This may then be picked up in a survey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    To be honest, it is only the overall site layout area that is required to correspond with what is registered.

    I carry out pre purchase surveys and I would only be checking boundary on the ground versus registered boundary as well as checking the planning site layout to ensure it corresponds with overall plot. An actual Garden area is not something I've ever checked and tbh rarely seen recorded on a drawing.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    You didn’t buy the planning permission. You bought a house and site as built. As it was on the ground.

    The planning is largely irrelevant here. Have you checked that there wasn’t any AI or FI that altered the site layouts. Your garden meets minimum standards by quite a bit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,555 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Oh I agree with all that as I've done a load of them myself over the years and never was asked to state the area of a front or rear garden. However I have, just like yourself, been asked to confirm the area of the overall plot on a few occasions and confirm that the house position complies with the planning layout. If there is a difference in the position of the house then its easy to see and confirm where a bit of garden was lost or gained.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    much appreciated your response. I understand and I have asked the questions when purchased the house. As said my solicitor advised that what I see is what I get. So, what you are saying is that the planning permission doesn’t have to corespondent with the actual plot? There has to be something that i can do!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I suppose the real question is, have you got the plot you thought you were buying? Never mind how much of it is given over to a garden; does the total area of the plot correspond to the area you thought you were buying?

    If the answer to that is "no" then you haved a much bigger beef than the size of your garden. You should be looking at suing the surveyor you engaged at the time of the purchase, since this is something he should have spotted.

    If the answer is "yes", then the position seems to be this: the planning permission stipulated that 106 sq m of your plot should be used as a garden, and in fact only 94.5 sq m is being so used. You can fix this yourself by increasing the size of your garden though this obviously will require a corresponding reduction in the area of the plot that is used for other purposes. Plus, you will need to make sure that you don't fix it in a way that involves a breach of some other planning condition.

    If it's impossible to fix in a way that doesn't breach some planning requirement then the problem lies with the planning permission; it imposes a set of conditions that are, taken together, impossible to comply with. But, honestly, it's not very likely that this is the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    thank you for your answer. I have checked the surveyors pre purchase email - it says structural pre check. Does this mean that he was only to assess the structure of the house? He was recommended by the broker that helped with buying the house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    i dont know the total area of the plot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    have checked the surveyors report. It says that he wasn’t instructed to check the measurements of the plot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    No . You're too late . You did not buy from the planning permission you bought what you saw. And you were happy with what you saw. Let it go!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    this is very sad. Thanks 🙏
    does anyone have any other opinions or experiences that can share?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Surely if the size of the site was contentious, it would have been when the house was bought initially off the developer. Every sale after that would have been the boundary as it existed when the first buyer bought it.
    Op, is the current boundary consistent with what the previous owner was selling? Your solicitor should have the boundary map.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    Thank you very much for your answer.

    I didnt alter any boundary, however one of my neighbours paid me a visit shortly after moving in with a request of signing a paper that I agree for him to build on my property a boundary fence, that was already there. I didnt sign, however shortly after I have noticed a request in the planning permission that was granted and the previous owner agreeing to give him 2 inches of his (now mine) property. - the fence was buit few months before me buying the house, however the planning application was done after I moved in the house. Have to mention that I wasnt aware of any of this when I was buying.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,488 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    I wouldn't sign anything unless I was sure, but I wouldn't argue over a few inches to maintain friendly relations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,488 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    To your original point, there's nothing you can do.

    The house is built and the garden size wasn't raised as an issue when you bought it.

    I don't know what remediation you may ask for. The builder isn't liable since the house is standing 20 years at this stage and the previous owner is gone too. There's no way to recover anything financially and it's not like you can take land from your neighbours. Even if the land registry doesn't match with your boundaries, I don't think you can do anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    I understand :(, however when the previous owner sold the house to me he didnt sell the same property as he had purchased from the builder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭mickdw




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    if the neigbours built the boundary fence on my property how can it be the same? (the previous owner signed a paper where allows them to build on the property 2 inchies, i reckon is way more, that i wasnt aware of when buying the house) - hence it s obvious that is not the same plot, is less. I hope it makes sense…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,488 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    You can always tell your neighbour to move the fence back, whatever agreement he had with the previous owner is not relevant. You own what the folio says you own, end of story.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,576 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Makes perfect sense to me, from reading your first post my initial thought was the missing square meters didn't just vanish, they are still there but somebody else has illegally claimed them.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    Much much appreciated! I dont know whats on the folio. I have the folio and the red map however there are no figures.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,488 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    You can ask a surveyor to define your boundaries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    I have emailed 3 of them and phoned one….not so easy to get one…but it will be done!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    But your contract of sale was not with the builder, you bought whatever the previous owner was selling, not necessarily what the previous owner bought. Two different sales, two different contracts, not necessarily in the same condition. The original buyer’s contract may have had a clause stating the size of the plots may not exactly coincide with planning/development brochure, but he/she agreed to buy the property as they saw it at time of purchase.

    What you need to confirm with your solicitor is that what you have, is what you paid the previous owner for, and that the boundary maps agreed in the contract are accurate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    thank you so much. My contract of sale was made on the same folio. I wasnt aware of any alterations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    And again, where does the boundary line at the front begin?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Land registry in Ireland operate a non conclusive boundary system. It is specifically this way so that land registry won't get involved in identifying a boundary on the ground.

    A surveyor is not going to identify a boundary down to 2 inches unless there are existing features on the ground.

    I will say it again. Your overall plot size is the measurement to concern yourself with. If this adds up, all is good.

    If there is a genuine encroachment at the neighbours boundary, it is worth looking at.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    Thanks so much. I understand the non conclusive boundary system. I am afraid that 2 inches transformed in in around 1 meter although, but in order for me to prove this i need to find out what used to be and what actually is.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You need to find out conclusively, not what the previous owner bought, but what you bought from the previous owner. Put simply, did you get what you paid the previous owner for, not what he paid the developer for. They don’t have to be the same thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    you are completely right!

    However, as no alteration of folio was registered since 2004 and the red map is dated 2010 - makes me believe that i purchased the same folio as in 2004 .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,902 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    What does the planning say exactly?
    Check your numbers, as the 106 crs 94.5 is not 15sqm.

    What papers do you think they didn't check? You are purchasing the deeds not the planning permission.
    Was a statement of compliance with planning provided?

    The planning permission has nothing to do with what was sold. Certainly not to you. If the previous owner sole some of his garden, he is entitled to do that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,902 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    It's a mistake to assume that a planning drawing years prior to completion was exactly was was provided.
    What was there before is in a way irrelevant. All that matters is what the deeds/folio say should be there.

    The planning application to move the fence is strange. It doesn't require planning generally. what there drawign attached. Can you share them (with personal details redacted)



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Get on with it. You bought what you saw. An as built house.

    Enjoy the house and live your life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    i am not sure why it wouldnt matter... When i have purchased the house the solicitor sent me a folio number and a red map. They are the same as the one in 2004, the map says 2010.

    If the previous owner allowed the neighbour to build on his land why didnt he share it with my solicitor as the 2010 map wasn’t accurate anymore.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭This is it


    At first, part of your garden was "missing" and now it's actually your neighbour who has taken part of your land? Pretty important piece of information to have left out.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    That’s if this is what happened.
    Very possible they just allowed a party wall agreement for an extension.

    OP is leaving out important info.
    Maybe a picture of the boundaries would help.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    But you bought what you seen on the ground. What the previous owner done is irrelevant. Once above board.

    If you buy a car from me, and I swapped the wheels before you bought the car then you can’t go back looking for the original wheels. You’re buying as is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    the right comparison would be if u purchased a car with 4 wheels and you are selling it to me with 3 as you gave one to your friend.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 240 ✭✭chubba1984


    In that scenario, what the seller originally purchased isn't relevant. If you bought the car with 3 wheels and you had the opportunity to survey the number of wheels but didnt, the problem is yours alone as purchaser. There would be no come back in that scenario.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There is a reason why home purchases are not covered by consumer law, you have the benefit of your own legal advice, and surveyor. You really need to go back to your solicitor and get them to check the contract of sale. If the solicitor relied on the report your surveyor provided, then you have to take responsibility for that report as you commissioned it.

    The point Gumbo made is a fair one. At the risk of straining the analogy, when you buy a second hand car, you aren’t necessarily buying the car advertised in the brochure, the previous owner may have accepted a lesser spec at the time of purchase, or made changes before selling to you. The important part is, did you receive what you paid for, not what the previous owner paid for. And if you didn’t recieve what you thought you did, or think now you should have, who is at fault, the solicitor or you for not getting the site properly surveyed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭miresica


    got in touch with my solicitor…she said i need the deeds (whatever this means)…she advised that the deeds are with the bank (should I have them as well?).

    However, when i asked her what have I purchased she advised that I have purchased the folio.

    Any help with advising me about the deeds would be much appreciated.



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