Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

DART+ (DART Expansion)

1348349350351353

Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    If lowering, may as well bite the bullet and lower all the way to Merrion Gates. Line would have to be closed anyway.


    Closing would also impact Rosslare trains.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    When the stadium was built, were any kind of sub-surface diaphragm walls put in at either side of the section where the DART runs under the entrance area for the stands?

    If this wasn't done, then any lowering will be very expensive in order to avoid interference with the stadium foundations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Like I said, if lowering the line, it could only be south of the Dodder so it wouldn't impact on the stadium anyway.

    I also wouldn't expect it to be lowered as far as the Merrion Gates due to the potential for flooding. If anything, raising the line might become necessary there. A better alternative would be to build a bridge as proposed north of the gates but if the line there was even 2m or so lower, it makes the new bridge much less intrusive so might actually be a runner.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The bridge between the two carparks next to OLQoP church in Merrion Road should really be an underpass for traffic with the closure of Merrion Gates. Traffic has to rise 5 metres or drop 5 metres, so no difference, but going under will cause less visual impact.

    It needs to be done anyway, so should be done as a stand alone project.



  • Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭spillit67


    We can’t ignore as well that the Merrion Gates ones onwards are also the main link from the South East to the East Link, Port, Port Tunnel and the Airport.

    I don’t understand why the Sandymount cycle route wasn’t dovetailed into a few of these.

    The objections were because people who lived there were afraid of traffic being backed right up as roads were reduced to single lane.

    None of these roads are appropriate for the traffic they get, the Eastern By Pass sorely missed. Arguably a smaller tunnel would make this easier for all (cyclists, motorists, DART users, buses, residents) but we are now in the anti car age.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The Merrion Gates project was a part of the Sandymount to Blackrock cycleway.

    Objections came from Merrion Road residents who were to lose their off street parking. The IT ran a campaign against it.

    Currently, Blackrock Clinic have a JR against the Busconnects scheme over the loss of a few car parking spaces. Now that is car-centric.

    It is not the roads being inappropriate for the traffic, it is the traffic that is inappropriate for the journeys the undertake. Why is traffic easier in June, July, and August?

    Kids are driven to as close to the school front door as it is possible given all those other SUVs that are driven as close to the school door driven by others driving their kids to school. Get kids to school by walking or bike or even by bus, and half the problem will disappear.

    All I can say is thank goodness the private aeroplane never caught on due to the impracticality of it - cost, pilot skill, infrastructure, and safety. Even boats never really caught on - most yachts spend 90% of their time tied up in a marina, rather than ploughing the oceans.

    Not every modern convenience has a long commercial life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭spillit67


    And what of the others? The Blackrock Clinic has nothing to do with Sandymount’s LCs.

    The simple reality is that this is an area where critical PT and road transit flows but we don’t have the infrastructure.

    I’d be fairly certain that the residents of the area would love to remove non local access traffic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I don't think it would be small. currently I believe the max Gradient on the the Irish rail network is around 2% (or 1:60)

    So a 3 metre change would in mean starting elevation 200 metres (roughly) either side of the bridge, and that's assuming the area is flat (Like if there is already a 1% grad, then you could be going back near 400 metres on one side.)

    There has been talk of increasing the allowable grad to 5% specifically relating to the level crossings on the south side of the city. There are bound to be knock on affects of doing that however. (Trains don't do well on hills, possible extra wear and tear on Motors)

    Finally, it's my opinion that all bridges need to be of sufficient height to allow a bus under them. Anyone who lives or works near the East Wall Road will remember the weekly bridge strikes pre port tunnel construction. Some idiot will always ignore the height restriction and hit it.

    Once a bridge is struck, an inspection has to happen on the bridge…. big delays



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,684 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    The original DART plan for the 70's envisioned a bit of a detour, which would have avoided some of the level crossing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Very interesting. The “Central” station in that plan would have been right in the centre of Temple Bar, which explains why CIÉ was so keen on buying properties around there in the late 1970s.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,083 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Temple Bar was supposed to be a bus/underground interchange. The city would have been transformed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 615 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Not sure if it there's steeper gradients elsewhere, but the section connecting the Drumcondra line into Docklands (passes under the Northern Line and Ossary Road) is 2.66% gradient (1 in 38m)

    I think the DU plans connecting the Northern Line into the tunnel had gradients 3% or higher (1 in 33m). Don't think 5% would ever happen for this type of railway..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Perhaps the 2% thing is a target on upgrades and "ahem" new railway lines.
    I'm on repeating what I've read on the Irish Rail website in the past.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Lansdowne to Sandymount stations is 860m according to Google maps.

    So 400m each side would be well within your 2% gradient.



  • Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭danfrancisco83


    If this was coloured in with a fancy graphic, it could pass as a future DART plan, not a relic from over 50 years ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Which Level Crossings are you attempting to eliminate?

    1-5 or 2-4?

    You cant raise this, as there is height restriction for the Dart.

    There is already a grad there (It's small though) the rail climbs approx 7M from Booterstown to Lansdowne road.

    Booterstown 1M
    --900M--
    Strand Road LC 3M
    --680M--
    Sydney Parade 4M
    --980M--
    Sandy Mount 6M
    --879M--
    Lansdowne Road 8M
    --1000M--
    Grand Canal Dock 9M

    I get what you're saying about eliminating the LC's but if you're going 3M you may as well go 6M (And try and lower the road by 4, or just raise by 10m), especially if you're gonna use a platform to elevate by 3M rather than using Ballast/Soil. Plus you'd be removing the risk of someone hitting the bridge (which 100% will happen)



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    ”Which Level Crossings are you attempting to eliminate?”

    2 and 3. Doesn’t look like 1 can be eliminated due to the stadium and the river, and four and five don’t need to be bridged as they can simply be closed if the new bridge/road is built through the church north of Merrion Gates.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The Merrion Gates would close and be replaced withe the bridge/underpass next to OLQoP Church on Merrion Road. The origin plan was to have an underpass at Merrion Gates for pedestrians and bikes metres from the tide. [Really?] Anyway, Sydney Parade LC could be closed with just a pedestrian bridge, and perhaps a ramp.

    That leaves Sandymount LC which could be closed as well as there is no right turn from Merrion Road northbound.

    That leaves Serpentine Ave which could have the rail lifted and allow the road pass under.

    So all that is left is Lansdowne LC. So just one left to deal with out of five. Would it matter if it was closed? [Even just opening at match time.]



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    There is zero chance of the line being raised unless it has to be raised by a few hundred mm in the future due to flooding. A 3m high elevated rail line through a heavily populated residential area just isn't going to happen, anywhere in the country. Visual impact, overshadowing, noise, loss of privacy, etc. it hasn't a hope of surviving the legal challenges.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,668 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    We have a Wicklow Taoiseach and a railway order giving CIE permission to close the maynooth line crossings so it's possible The DART plus project may restart and the plan to close all crossings with one new road underpass and 4 ped bridges may still go ahead.

    The line isn't going to be raised or lowered

    Post edited by cgcsb on


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,026 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Harris is only Taoiseach for a few more months, he won't be pushing through any new infrastructure projects. The passing loop at Greystones seems to be confirmed and Dart to Wicklow Town is in planning, he's certainly not going to waste any political capital annoying well heeled D4 residents.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,668 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Its not a new infrastructure project though, it's an existing stalled one.

    He could also well be Taoiseach after the election.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    It won't be possible to do an underpass without raising the line. The previous bridge proposal was dropped and I can't see it being resurrected unless the level of the line is also adjusted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,026 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    he might be, but the problems that exist now will exist after the election too. The issue with this project and many others is the planning system, it's too slow and it's too easy for well-heeled objectors to use that slowness to kill projects that they don't like. Any fundamental change to the planning system would probably require a referendum that would be unlikely to pass.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    There are plenty of things which can be blamed on our planning system but that the rail line won't be elevated through a mature, heavily populated residential area isn't one. The fundamental issue with that goes way beyond ABP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    I think Strand Road cycle lane trial epitomises the issue there. A section 38 project, explicitly avoiding the laborious planning system, challenged by a wealthy local and an anti cycling cllr, sympathetic judge refuses to accept council rationales, council then have to appeal the judgement, and here we are 3 years later, still awaiting that judgement, for a 6 month trial period in 2021.



  • Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭GusherING


    If they had had run a more democratic process for the Sandymount cycle lane it might have turned out better. A lot of things done by the State during Covid were not done right and this was one of them.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Yes, the fact that there was an emergency going on was used to circumvent normal ways of working.



  • Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭specialbyte


    Section 38 of the Road Traffic Act is the normal standard process for how 80% of cycle projects are implemented. The council got more ambitious with their plans during covid. That was it



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭EarWig


    Extension of MetroLink to Donabate may be looked at in future transport review, says NTA

    Population growth in the area and recommendations of all-island strategic rail blueprint review to be examined

    https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2024/08/17/extension-of-metrolink-to-donabate-may-be-looked-at-in-future-transport-review-says-nta/

    Post edited by spacetweek on


Advertisement