Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Should Education be privatised?

  • 14-08-2024 7:36pm
    #1
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭


    As the new academic year gets under way the same oul carousel of arguments and counterarguments will carry on between the relatively impotent unions and the Department of Education over a wide range of issues - from teacher shortages to school shortages to shortages in funding etc…. the list is almost endless.

    The fact is that out of 36 OECD countries Ireland comes last in terms of funding relative to GDP. Also FF/FG are not interested in schools or funding them properly as their interests lie with the Googles, Intels & Immigrants (trying to be Billy Big Balls on the world stage).

    So why not privatise schools?

    By this I mean the state should stop funding them entirely and leave foreign vulture funds to come in and fund/charge for them instead? If this sounds familiar then it should as it is exactly what is/has been occurring regarding the provision of housing in Ireland for some time now.

    There would almost certainly be consequences for the average citizen with children as all schools would become fee-paying practically overnight. But isn't this the capitalist model that Ireland espouses?

    Why does Ireland offer socialism in terms of education provision but is uber capitalist elsewhere in society?

    This could have positive knock on affects - for example taxes could be reduced as a consequence.



Comments

  • #2
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,677 ✭✭✭Feisar


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rT-KHV5kAc

    No

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #3
    Allinall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,761 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Funding relative to GDP is meaningless.

    Where do we come in spending per student?



  • #4
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503750#Comment_122503750

    It's not meaningless. Only meaningless because it doesn't suit your narrative. As a consequence of our lack of funding schools are running with leaking prefabs, turning off the heat in the winter, forced to run cake sales and ask for separate donations from parents and shortages of teachers with millions of hours of lessons with no teacher in them happening every week.



  • #5
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,971 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503750#Comment_122503750

    We're more or less on the OECD and EU average on spend per student and 6th of 36 on spend as % of total government expenditure.



  • #6
    Quiet Achiever
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭Quiet Achiever


    The greatest thing this country ever did, and the thing that still today remains the greatest catalyst to social mobility, is free education.

    So i disagree completely.



  • Advertisement
  • #7
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503772#Comment_122503772

    Completely untrue.



  • #8
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,677 ✭✭✭Feisar


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503775#Comment_122503775

    That's what I was saying however you put it much more eloquently!

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #9
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503775#Comment_122503775

    Yet there are many on here who'd agree with you and then state the opposite regarding housing provision [the state shouldn't be involved, houses shouldn't be 300K etc….]



  • #10
    Pauliedragon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,834 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    You call a publicly funded education system socialism? What do people who can't afford a private school do?



  • #11
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503795#Comment_122503795

    What happens when people cannot afford housing or rent? Doesn't seem to bother us as a society when the most basic need of a person (shelter) is the issue.



  • Advertisement
  • #12
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,971 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503780#Comment_122503780

    That's easily said. I have the figures in front of me. Google education spend per student by country. It's all there. But if you say it's untrue then it must be untrue.



  • #13
    Pauliedragon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,834 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503802#Comment_122503802

    Why not health aswell so? There are 1000's of people out there on 5,6,7 year waiting lists in the public system because they can't afford private insurance. It does bother people who struggle to afford rent or a mortgage what gave you the impression it doesn't? It's already a massive burden for people trying to pay rent or a mortgage and you want to take more money out of their pocket by making them pay private school fees. That argument makes no sense.



  • #14
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,971 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    What happens when people cannot afford housing or rent? Doesn't seem to bother us as a society when the most basic need of a person (shelter) is the issue.

    And that has what to do with funding education.

    Post edited by Jim_Hodge on


  • #15
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503820#Comment_122503820

    "Ireland remains last out of 36 countries when it comes to investing in education as a measure of gross domestic product (GDP).

    That is according to the latest ‘Education at a Glance’ report, published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) on Monday.

    All OECD countries devote a substantial share of national output to educational institutions, the report notes. Spending on education in Ireland in terms of its GDP amounted to 3.1% of our GDP in 2019, 2.3% in terms of primary and secondary, and 0.8% at third level.

    This compares to 6.1% in the UK, 10.5% in Chile, and 6.5% in Norway. Education funding does not respond strongly to short-term fluctuations in GDP, the report notes, but is influenced by long-term trends in its growth."

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40974836.html#:~:text=Ireland%20bottom%20of%20the%20table%20for%20investment%20in%20education%2C%20OECD%20finds,-Ireland%20remains%20last&text=Casey%2C%20Education%20Correspondent-,Ireland%20remains%20last%20out%20of%2036%20countries%20when%20it%20comes,gross%20domestic%20product%20(GDP).

    If you don't mind I'll take the information from the international independent professionals rather than your attempts to muddy the waters with lies, damned lies & statistics.



  • #16
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,971 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503831#Comment_122503831

    Firstly you're still comparing to GDP. Secondly if you actually read the OECD report the newspaper refers to you'll see spend per student is, more or less, at the average figure. . And, as said, spend as % of total government expenditure is in the top 6. A World Economic Forum report confirms all this.

    You're using one matrix to suit your narrative and it's the least meaningful of the measures employed.



  • #17
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,197 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503831#Comment_122503831

    'However, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) report notes that GDP may be inflated in Ireland due to the large number of tech companies with legal headquarters in Ireland for “tax purposes”.

    By contrast, when education spending is ranked as a proportion of State expenditure, it shows Ireland allocated 12 per cent on education, above the OECD average of 10 per cent.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/09/12/ireland-ranks-last-in-spending-on-education-as-a-percentage-of-gdp-study-finds/



  • #18
    Psychedelic Hedgehog
    Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭Psychedelic Hedgehog


    An absolutely detestable idea. Kids from disadvantaged backgrounds would never get a chance to fulfil their potential.



  • #19
    emo72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,293 ✭✭✭emo72


    Nothing should be privatised. Well certainly not the basics. Education, health, water, waste, transport, housing. When something is privatised it goes to ****, such as waste, housing, water (nearly, they tried!)

    Where is the competition in the market to drive down housing and waste costs, look at the price of waste disposal now, and the amount of rubbish being illegally dumped and destroying the countryside. Look at water companies in the UK on the verge of being nationalised because the profits go to investors and not back into infrastructure. Look at trains in UK being taken back into public ownership because the network is disintegrating. Everyone open your eyes, the proof is all there for you.

    What do we value, the greater good for all. Or profit for investors?



  • #20
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 987 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058364406/should-education-be-privatised

    No the better way is the government still funds schools, but all the schools are privatized. So the government pays out a grant per pupil, and it's up to the school managers to manage that money and deliver education. The teachers and other staff would therefore not be government employees. The private school would just make a 10% pension contribtuon each year to their staff, just like for any private sector worker. This would drive efficiency and reduce cost ultimately to the taxpayer.



  • #21
    scottser
    Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭scottser


    Yes, if you want to be even more broke and your kids becoming even more stupid and ill-disciplined.



  • Advertisement
  • #22
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,756 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Thinly veiled "we should have a wasteful mega-quango to build houses" thread.

    The government also doesn't build the schools, so the analogy is flawed, as well as the persistent use of GDP because it doesn't suit the narrative to use reality based figures.

    Ireland should build more houses, the planning system needs to be overhauled to allow this to happen. Putting the government in charge of builders would be a big giant disaster.



  • #23
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,809 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Privatisation is not a help, but the Irish government has slashed its spending per capita on third level education by not increasing its expenditure as the number of students increased. Having lots of students is great, but although graduates pay the vasy amjority of income tax, the Irish government does not invest in their education.

    The consequence of this is the pretty much the worst staff/student ratio in a half prosperous country

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41224783.html



  • #24
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,534 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503768#Comment_122503768

    Using GDP as a denominator in any ratio is meaningless in Ireland, as GDP is massively inflated due to MNC activities.

    This is well known.

    We do not underfund education.

    We have 3,000+ national schools, way more than other countries would have. There is massive duplication and waste. A rural parish in county Sligo has 3 or 4 small national schools.

    That means 4x overheads, 4x principal salaries, 4x pensions, etc.

    We spread the funding too thinly, as there are too many schools.

    A typical teachers pension, in payment now, is 700+ per week. Is that too low?

    We have introduced taxpayer-financed textbooks, and now taxpayer-financed hot food. These are examples of the massive increases in public spending that have occurred over the last five years.



  • #25
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,534 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Primary education has always been, in some sense, privatised.

    99%+ of all national schools are privately provided, by various charities and churches.



  • #26
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,534 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122503831#Comment_122503831

    You display your own ignorance by using GDP as the denominator.



  • #27
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,534 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122504003#Comment_122504003

    Food is essential. The production of food is left to markets. Has that worked out okay? Are there any shortages?

    The same goes for furniture. I feel it's essential. The markets provide it, with very little State intervention.

    I sometimes wonder should we let TESCO or Dunnes offer MRIs, there wouldn't be any waiting lists!!!



  • #28
    emo72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,293 ✭✭✭emo72


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122504150#Comment_122504150

    The market is working well there, (food) It always has. Competition does keep prices down in this case.



  • #29
    I.R.Y.E.D
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭I.R.Y.E.D


    Looking like the education system failed for those that want it and other public services privatised.



Advertisement