BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Corca Baiscinn · 16-05-2017 8:27pm

monument wrote: »

Simple solution: Bus and access only!

Enforced by electronic bollards at at least railway bridge. If needed, also have bollards at / near both ends with local access to houses via Cabra Drive for east of the railway and Glenbeigh Road for west of the railway.

Is a system like that, ie bus and local traffic only, used in other places that you are aware of? Was going to say if so, that would bolster the case for trying it. Then I remembered that things that work elsewhere would never work in Ireland, our roads are too narrow for MPDL (Sean Canney),. Ditto, 30 kph zones, banning cars from city centre etc etc!

hmmm · 16-05-2017 10:32pm

Reading the consultancy's website, there's a lot of interesting ideas - some quite dramatic. If they are being paid to deliver, it could be very interesting. For example, instead of a bus that appears once an hour and goes on a meandering 2 hour trip into the city centre, have a much more frequent local bus that feeds people into a railway or LUAS station.

Unfortunately however the key decision seems to come down to coverage vs ridership, and I'm sure that coverage will be the choice by the politicians.

Stephen15 · 16-05-2017 10:59pm

hmmm wrote: »

Reading the consultancy's website, there's a lot of interesting ideas - some quite dramatic. If they are being paid to deliver, it could be very interesting. For example, instead of a bus that appears once an hour and goes on a meandering 2 hour trip into the city centre, have a much more frequent local bus that feeds people into a railway or LUAS station.

I can see pro's and con's to this model pro's being in some cases shorter journey times, increased frequency and a more efficient use of resources. However disadvantages I see are more waiting around, some journeys may take longer just some may be shorter, having to wait around late at night for a bus at a desserted luas or rail station with no chance of maybe getting a taxi.

Hopefully we've learned our lesson from those dart feeders we once had.

Dyr · 16-05-2017 11:01pm

hmmm wrote: »

For example, instead of a bus that appears once an hour and goes on a meandering 2 hour trip into the city centre, have a much more frequent local bus that feeds people into a railway or LUAS station.

Dublin bus have made token efforts at that sort of local shuttle, usually to get over resistance to downgrading a service. They tend to get reduced quickly and then quietly shelved

murphaph · 17-05-2017 8:53am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I can see pro's and con's to this model pro's being in some cases shorter journey times, increased frequency and a more efficient use of resources. However disadvantages I see are more waiting around, some journeys may take longer just some may be shorter, having to wait around late at night for a bus at a desserted luas or rail station with no chance of maybe getting a taxi.

Hopefully we've learned our lesson from those dart feeders we once had.

The night busses here in Berlin all meet at the interchange points at roughly the same time, so there are always people about. It can be done. Traffic in Dublin isn't even an excuse at those times. These interchange points also attract taxis, hoping for a fare from an impatient punter.

bk · 17-05-2017 9:53am

hmmm wrote: »

Reading the consultancy's website, there's a lot of interesting ideas - some quite dramatic. If they are being paid to deliver, it could be very interesting. For example, instead of a bus that appears once an hour and goes on a meandering 2 hour trip into the city centre, have a much more frequent local bus that feeds people into a railway or LUAS station.

It is depressing that such an idea would be considered dramatic.

It really is very logical idea and it is well implemented in cities all over the world.

Local bus services feeding into high density and high frequency DARTs, Luas, Metro and BRT's.

Stephen15 wrote:

I can see pro's and con's to this model pro's being in some cases shorter journey times, increased frequency and a more efficient use of resources. However disadvantages I see are more waiting around, some journeys may take longer just some may be shorter, having to wait around late at night for a bus at a desserted luas or rail station with no chance of maybe getting a taxi.

Well first of all, you wouldn't need to be waiting around at night for a connecting service inbound as the idea is to be connecting with a high frequency service (max every 10 minutes).

Outbound, you shouldn't have to wait too long as the idea is that the local bus is also frequent, as it isn't running a long route and off peak roads should be quiet anyway.

Also if you have ever been to such transport hubs in other countries, then you would know that they usually have a big queue of waiting taxis hoping to pick up people who don't want to wait. They normally act as a taxi rank for the local area, if someone uses Uber at home, etc. the taxi will normally go from there.

Atlanta is a good example of this model. They have a service very similar to our DART. Each of their "DART" stations is a transport hub that includes:

- A bus station, which usually have about 4 or 5 local bus routes operating from it. They have proper bus parking bays and all.
- A big taxi rank
- A large car park for park and ride
- A large bike parking facility
- Often a coffee/sandwich/convenience shop

Also to note, that one ticket covers both the train journey and onward bus journey.

Stephen15 · 17-05-2017 1:43pm

Another benefit I see to a move to feeder buses is that it will free up our streets from buses. So less congestion which is welcome.

bk · 17-05-2017 1:49pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Another benefit I see to a move to feeder buses is that it will free up our streets from buses. So less congestion which is welcome.

Well you would still likely have lots of buses, just higher density BRT, tri-axle/tripple door double deckers and trams. At least until we get multiple underground lines (think decades).

antoinolachtnai · 17-05-2017 1:58pm

It is a great idea, but:

- Luas basically isn't suitable for feeder buses during peak times. The reason is that it just doesn't have the capacity. If you had a really strong, well organised system to get people to the luas at peak times, you would quickly overwhelm it. However, there is still an advantage in having feeders at off-peak times, because the shorter journey length means you can run the local feeder bus at a much higher frequency.

The DART is not brilliantly located for feeders. There are two problems - it runs along the coast and the stations are often hard to get at by road. It does not have that many 'strong' destinations. Still, it could be done a lot better than it is now. There is certainly immense capacity available on the DART and it could be a lot better utilised.

Could you have 'feeders' for a major bus line? As things are today, I don't really think it would be worthwhile. The route which would be fed would have to have a frequency and reliability at least as good as the DART and probably much more like the Luas to make it worthwhile for the customer for starters.

I am thinking of the 4 route here. There is a lot of density on this route, especially the northern part, and a lot of strong destinations, but somehow it only operates on a 15-minute schedule, with an hourly schedule on Sundays. I think the latent demand on this route is immense but if you can't operate it properly, you'll never get it to develop. And if you can't get the 4 to work, there is just no chance you are going to be able to get a feeder network to hang off it, or indeed to hang off a much weaker route.

For feeders to a bus route, you would need a different operating model with smaller buses that would be handy around estates. If you were going to stick with the current model (buy buses as big as possible to reduce fixed costs per passenger seat) you'd be better off with having the routes serving the estates 'peel off' from the main route, so that there would be frequency on the main route but the outer areas would be well covered.

Stephen15 · 17-05-2017 3:30pm

murphaph wrote: »

The night busses here in Berlin all meet at the interchange points at roughly the same time, so there are always people about. It can be done. Traffic in Dublin isn't even an excuse at those times. These interchange points also attract taxis, hoping for a fare from an impatient punter.

Yes but Berlin is quite different to any other city in europe including Dublin. It has three city centres one in the east, one in the west and a modern one that has been built since the wall came . So quite a lot of people will be making different journeys. Not everyone is going into the one city centre.

Boulevardier · 17-05-2017 4:20pm

We no longer have one city centre either. We have Dundrum, we have Tallaght, we have Citywest and we have the airport, to name just some.

Stephen15 · 17-05-2017 4:33pm

Boulevardier wrote: »

We no longer have one city centre either. We have Dundrum, we have Tallaght, we have Citywest and we have the airport, to name just some.

Yes but the majority are still going in the cc and not those place the majority of shops and offices are still in the cc. While those places are growing and more and more will flock there in years to come they won't take the place of the actual cc. Im not against orbital routes I was basically saying that comparing Dublin to Berlin is like comparing apples and oranges. I think Dublin is more comparable to London than Berlin.

n97 mini · 17-05-2017 8:04pm

The majority appear to be going into the centre because the transport routes go into the centre.

People won't use a bus to go local even where it suits as there is no 60c city centre fare in Tallaght, Dundrum etc.

I'd agree with the feeder idea. Dublin Bus by and large competes with Irish Rail rather than complimenting it. To develop integrated transport all modes have to be looked at as parts of a single solution, and planned and priced accordingly. The notion of rail being premium needs to be done away too. Standing for an hour on a cattle train in suburban Dublin is not the same as having a table to yourself on the Sligo train.

murphaph · 17-05-2017 8:18pm

The Luas could have significantly higher capacity. It's line of sight so you can have trams running immediately after one another. We just need to be prepared to give over road space and junction priority to it. Need to make bold decisions to maximise what we have in terms of infrastructure.

Stephen15 · 17-05-2017 8:22pm

n97 mini wrote: »

The majority appear to be going into the centre because the transport routes go into the centre.

People won't use a bus to go local even where it suits as there is no 60c city centre fare in Tallaght, Dundrum etc.

I'd agree with the feeder idea. Dublin Bus by and large competes with Irish Rail rather than complimenting it. To develop integrated transport all modes have to be looked at as parts of a single solution, and planned and priced accordingly. The notion of rail being premium needs to be done away too. Standing for an hour on a cattle train in suburban Dublin is not the same as having a table to yourself on the Sligo train.

How many of those would say people are going to change to another bus luas, dart or commuter train relatively few I would imagine. Most are going into town to work, shop or socialise. Do you want to keep people in the suburbs and kill off the cc?

People dont use public transport locally as the parking in most places in the suburbs is much handier, cheaper and more freely available than in the cc.

The leap card fare on a journey from Dun Laoghaire to Tara Street is €2.45 as opposed to €2.60 by bus so your theory about suburban rail being more expensive then the bus is false.

antoinolachtnai · 17-05-2017 8:34pm

murphaph wrote: »

The Luas could have significantly higher capacity. It's line of sight so you can have trams running immediately after one another. We just need to be prepared to give over road space and junction priority to it. Need to make bold decisions to maximise what we have in terms of infrastructure.

This is just not true. You cannot go much more than 20 trains per hour no matter how much you prioritise the Luas for the simple reason that one LUAS line crosses the other at grade. The whole thing will back up.

Well I just cannot see how it is true. Maybe there is a model somewhere but I would like to see it.

cgcsb · 17-05-2017 10:14pm

monument wrote: »

Simple solution: Bus and access only!

Enforced by electronic bollards at at least railway bridge. If needed, also have bollards at / near both ends with local access to houses via Cabra Drive for east of the railway and Glenbeigh Road for west of the railway.

Given that cars regularly sail through college green and turn right from O'Connell Bridge onto Eden quay and here are no plans to even bring in camera enforcement at this junction, somehow I think electronic bollards are just a few steps ahead of Irish traffic enforcement thinking..

n97 mini · 17-05-2017 10:26pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

How many of those would say people are going to change to another bus luas, dart or commuter train relatively few I would imagine. Most are going into town to work, shop or socialise. Do you want to keep people in the suburbs and kill off the cc?

People don't use public transport locally as the parking in most places in the suburbs is much handier, cheaper and more freely available than in the cc.

The leap card fare on a journey from Dun Laoghaire to Tara Street is ?2.45 as opposed to ?2.60 by bus so your theory about suburban rail being more expensive then the bus is false.

People don't change as it costs them money. They should be billed per journey, not every time they change mode. The 30 day Dublin Bus rambler is the perfect example: all the travel you want for around 4 euro per day but it's bus only. No equivalent multimode ticket for an equivalent price.

Under the current fare structure Dun Laoghaire to Tara probably shouldn't be cheaper by train than by bus, I would say that's an anomaly. Ideally both should cost the same. Maynooth to cc costs 3.56 by train or 2.60 by bus.

Stephen15 · 17-05-2017 10:40pm

n97 mini wrote: »

People don't change as it costs them money. They should be billed per journey, not every time they change mode. The 30 day Dublin Bus rambler is the perfect example: all the travel you want for around 4 euro per day but it's bus only. No equivalent multimode ticket for an equivalent price.

Under the current fare structure Dun Laoghaire to Tara probably shouldn't be cheaper by train than by bus, I would say that's an anomaly. Ideally both should cost the same. Maynooth to cc costs 3.56 by train or 2.60 by bus.

People dont change because its more convient to drive. I don't have a car it usually works well for me but there a while I had to go from Finglas to Cabinteely it took me about 90 mins getting a 40 and 145. Why get have a 90 minute by bus when you have a 30 minute journey by car on the m50. Now Im not bashing DB I thought 90 minutes was reasonable enough it wouldnt take you that much quicker driving not using the m50.

I would that has more to do with IE's fare structure than the theory of charging a premium for rail over bus. Maynooth is obivously in a different fare zone than Dun Laoghaire so thats why it costs as opposed to DBs system where there is a flat fare for over 13 stages.

n97 mini · 17-05-2017 10:54pm

I'm saying in general people won't change modes if it costs extra, which it does. They'll drive locally as the minimum fare on the bus is 1.50. They might bus it if it was 60c, but that's a separate point.

As I said DL is probably an anomaly. Rail is considered premium. I doubt you'd find too many rail journeys that are cheaper than the equivalent bus. Which leads back to my point that DB shouldn't be running competing routes.

wordofwarning · 17-05-2017 11:06pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is a great idea, but:

- Luas basically isn't suitable for feeder buses during peak times. The reason is that it just doesn't have the capacity. If you had a really strong, well organised system to get people to the luas at peak times, you would quickly overwhelm it. However, there is still an advantage in having feeders at off-peak times, because the shorter journey length means you can run the local feeder bus at a much higher frequency.

What I think is bizarre about the Luas is that the frequency varies during the day. I have been to other European cities, where their trams are every 10 minutes between 6am to 12am. I have been on pretty full red line Luas at 11pm, as they are so infrequent at certain hours.

IMO if there was a decent bus service complementary to the red line from James to the IFSC, it would not be as packed. Likewise if the Greenline had decent bus services from the inner suburbs, it would not be as packed.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The DART is not brilliantly located for feeders. There are two problems - it runs along the coast and the stations are often hard to get at by road. It does not have that many 'strong' destinations. Still, it could be done a lot better than it is now. There is certainly immense capacity available on the DART and it could be a lot better utilised.

I totally agree. What is the not the norm in Dublin is cycling to your DART station. Go to a S-Bahn (the German DART) in Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt etc. It is not abnormal to cycle 20 mins to your S-Bahn station and commute to the city from there. I have gone to Suburban stations in German and seen thousands of bikes at the station. Go to Drumcondra station and there is like 5 bike racks...

Feeder routes work when the city has little congestion. A bus can link with another bus, as at 11.05am the 4 routes interconnects with the 9 or 11. At 11.15 the 4 links in with the 16. The problem in Dublin is the traffic is so horrific, that is impossible to have regular feeder interconnections.

I lived in a German city, where the buses every single day arrived at their time tabled time. I never had a missed bus or a late bus. In Dublin I am grateful at times when a bus is within 10/15 mins of its time tabled time at the moment.

The fact is the Dublin economy in the last 5 years has rallied yet I don't think the timetable has changed. Our bus schedule is still the same as when we had 16% unemployment and an economic growth on par with a basket case of an African nation.

Stephen15 · 18-05-2017 12:39am

n97 mini wrote: »

As I said DL is probably an anomaly. Rail is considered premium. I doubt you'd find too many rail journeys that are cheaper than the equivalent bus. Which leads back to my point that DB shouldn't be running competing routes.

Nope most journeys within County Dublin are €2.45 such as Connolly to Clonsilla and Connolly to Malahide is the same. The journey thats even cheaper again is Howth Junction to Connolly coming in at only €1.73.

Most of the routes that run along a similar route to a rail line actually serve an area which is a good mile or two from the nearest railway station. I dont think many people take into consideration when choosing a method of public transport.

Dravokivich · 18-05-2017 10:54am

n97 mini wrote: »

I'm saying in general people won't change modes if it costs extra, which it does. They'll drive locally as the minimum fare on the bus is 1.50. They might bus it if it was 60c, but that's a separate point.

As I said DL is probably an anomaly. Rail is considered premium. I doubt you'd find too many rail journeys that are cheaper than the equivalent bus. Which leads back to my point that DB shouldn't be running competing routes.

What routes do they have that compete?

I'm not overly familiar with buses along the DART line, but Maynooth and Kildare lines, the buses have minimal impact on the train line as they don't connect much with stations along it. Very few routes will go by a number of stations. The 39s/37s is the closest I can think of, but that's due to the N3, more so than the lay of the line.

AlekSmart · 18-05-2017 11:30am

wordofwarning wrote: »

What I think is bizarre about the Luas is that the frequency varies during the day. I have been to other European cities, where their trams are every 10 minutes between 6am to 12am. I have been on pretty full red line Luas at 11pm, as they are so infrequent at certain hours.

IMO if there was a decent bus service complementary to the red line from James to the IFSC, it would not be as packed. Likewise if the Greenline had decent bus services from the inner suburbs, it would not be as packed.

I totally agree. What is the not the norm in Dublin is cycling to your DART station. Go to a S-Bahn (the German DART) in Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt etc. It is not abnormal to cycle 20 mins to your S-Bahn station and commute to the city from there. I have gone to Suburban stations in German and seen thousands of bikes at the station. Go to Drumcondra station and there is like 5 bike racks...

Feeder routes work when the city has little congestion. A bus can link with another bus, as at 11.05am the 4 routes interconnects with the 9 or 11. At 11.15 the 4 links in with the 16. The problem in Dublin is the traffic is so horrific, that is impossible to have regular feeder interconnections.

I lived in a German city, where the buses every single day arrived at their time tabled time. I never had a missed bus or a late bus. In Dublin I am grateful at times when a bus is within 10/15 mins of its time tabled time at the moment.

The fact is the Dublin economy in the last 5 years has rallied yet I don't think the timetable has changed. Our bus schedule is still the same as when we had 16% unemployment and an economic growth on par with a basket case of an African nation.

Good points,well made.

Unfortunately,our concept of a City's Public Transport overview differs radically from that of the German,or greater European one.

For us,it is a matter of either/or because our well entrenched planners cannot concieve of such wizardry as complimentary modes and interconnectivity.

One of the greatest drawbacks in our City's Bus Network,for example,is the absence of " Short-Working" points at which late running bused can be turned and regulated back onto the timetable with minimal disruption to customers.

Typically,such loactions would be at points where a number of routes converge and would allow for transfers to facilitate most customers journeys.

Currently,the only option open to a Dublin Route Controller is a single City-Centre option,as in curtailing a full journey into a "C" or An Lár destination.

Your mention of Drumcondra Station strikes a chord with me also,as this Station could very easily be just such a location,with ample space available along one side to allow for a turnabout back onto Whitworth or Drumcondra Roads as appropriate.

Such stuff would require the removal of on-street Car Parking space,which currently flies totally contrary to any Traffic Policy of Dublin City Council,and therefore an immediate non-runner,devoid of even the most cursory consideration.

We are not German in our physche,and never will be...however,that should not be reason for us to refuse to adapt and refine our own systems to achieve a better result.
Currently,the prevailing think within Dublin's Public Transport Administration is to keep everything as lose to the "Traditional" as possible.

One example of this will soon be visible on the likes of the 4,9,11 and 13 Bus routes,as Dublin Bus moves to it's Summer Timetables on selected routes.

The Summer Timetable features a reduction in duties operated to allow for School and College holidays...but..and it's a BIG "but".....nobody appears to have realized that locations such as St Patricks College and DCU now operate 12 months of the year,with literally thousands of young Foreign Students arriving to take up residence in the Campuses for the summer.

Most Busdrivers would be thinking along the lines of "We could do with an extra few duties here"...whilst the NTA appear to be happy with.... " I wonder if we can take another duty off without anybody noticing".

The Foreign Student market is a large and growing sector of business,which the City should be catering for,yet it remains something which we grudgingly put-up with,as the traditional "Irish Welcome" dissapates as yet another stuffed-to-the gills Bus passes the locals on the road.

Perhaps,with Enda Kenny now stepping back,we could entice Angela Merkel to take over on a Caretaker basis ?

murphaph · 18-05-2017 11:37am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

This is just not true. You cannot go much more than 20 trains per hour no matter how much you prioritise the Luas for the simple reason that one LUAS line crosses the other at grade. The whole thing will back up.

Well I just cannot see how it is true. Maybe there is a model somewhere but I would like to see it.

We could lengthen trams and platforms (installing temporary wooden extensions until permanent extensions are in place) to increase capacity without running extra trams but I still believe that it would be eminently possible to run a tram every 2 minutes (so 30tph instead of 2, adding 50% capacity).

There is no problem with 2 Luas lines crossing each other at this sort of frequency. The problem is road based traffic must be de-prioritised in the vicinity of Luas for this to work.

It would NOT work today, because it would hinder the cross city bus routes far too much (I'm not even considering cars as to be honest we're beyond that. We have to sacrifice private car access to the core city centre if we are to move forward at all), but we're talking about this in the context of a complete overhaul of the bus network, which could be designed with a prioritised Luas in place.

The proper solution is to realise that the Red Line is almost pre-metro from James's to Tallaght, with very little on street running. A German city in the 1970s would be putting the city centre bit in a cut and cover tunnel. It was a major failing that this did not happen originally as the heavy lifting was done when services were diverted. The difference between excavating down 1.5 metres or 5 metres would have been totally worth it.

murphaph · 18-05-2017 12:17pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

We are not German in our physche,and never will be...however,that should not be reason for us to refuse to adapt and refine our own systems to achieve a better result.

Don't even need to go to Germany, Glasgow shows us how it can be done. The SPT is a million miles better than Dublin and that without a Teuton in sight!

Drumcondra Station could easily be developed into something like Partick.

schemingbohemia · 18-05-2017 1:12pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Good points,well made.

Unfortunately,our concept of a City's Public Transport overview differs radically from that of the German,or greater European one.

For us,it is a matter of either/or because our well entrenched planners cannot concieve of such wizardry as complimentary modes and interconnectivity.

One of the greatest drawbacks in our City's Bus Network,for example,is the absence of " Short-Working" points at which late running bused can be turned and regulated back onto the timetable with minimal disruption to customers.

Typically,such loactions would be at points where a number of routes converge and would allow for transfers to facilitate most customers journeys.

Currently,the only option open to a Dublin Route Controller is a single City-Centre option,as in curtailing a full journey into a "C" or An Lár destination.

Your mention of Drumcondra Station strikes a chord with me also,as this Station could very easily be just such a location,with ample space available along one side to allow for a turnabout back onto Whitworth or Drumcondra Roads as appropriate.

Such stuff would require the removal of on-street Car Parking space,which currently flies totally contrary to any Traffic Policy of Dublin City Council,and therefore an immediate non-runner,devoid of even the most cursory consideration.

We are not German in our physche,and never will be...however,that should not be reason for us to refuse to adapt and refine our own systems to achieve a better result.
Currently,the prevailing think within Dublin's Public Transport Administration is to keep everything as lose to the "Traditional" as possible.

One example of this will soon be visible on the likes of the 4,9,11 and 13 Bus routes,as Dublin Bus moves to it's Summer Timetables on selected routes.

The Summer Timetable features a reduction in duties operated to allow for School and College holidays...but..and it's a BIG "but".....nobody appears to have realized that locations such as St Patricks College and DCU now operate 12 months of the year,with literally thousands of young Foreign Students arriving to take up residence in the Campuses for the summer.

Most Busdrivers would be thinking along the lines of "We could do with an extra few duties here"...whilst the NTA appear to be happy with.... " I wonder if we can take another duty off without anybody noticing".

The Foreign Student market is a large and growing sector of business,which the City should be catering for,yet it remains something which we grudgingly put-up with,as the traditional "Irish Welcome" dissapates as yet another stuffed-to-the gills Bus passes the locals on the road.

Perhaps,with Enda Kenny now stepping back,we could entice Angela Merkel to take over on a Caretaker basis ?

Is it not the case that DB propose the summer timetable to NTA who then approve or not? Also, Summer Time seems to see an awful lot of cancelled or curtailed services due to Bus Drivers not showing up for work or poor scheduling of annual leave approval by Managers.

Stephen15 · 18-05-2017 1:37pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Is it not the case that DB propose the summer timetable to NTA who then approve or not? Also, Summer Time seems to see an awful lot of cancelled or curtailed services due to Bus Drivers not showing up for work or poor scheduling of annual leave approval by Managers.

Many cities across Europe operate summer timetables

bk · 18-05-2017 1:39pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

For us,it is a matter of either/or because our well entrenched planners cannot concieve of such wizardry as complimentary modes and interconnectivity.

I don't see that with the NTA. Every plan I read from the NTA seems to include European best practices in infrastructure planning. However those plans never seem to come to fruition due to political interference in them.

AlekSmart wrote: »

We are not German in our physche,and never will be...however,that should not be reason for us to refuse to adapt and refine our own systems to achieve a better result.

Actually having spent a lot of time in Norway and Sweden, I think we have quiet a Scandinavian psyche, which isn't that far off Germanic.

In fact I think we are a lot closer to Scandinavian, then British psyche. Obviously not exactly the same, we have hundreds of years of British rule that has coloured our culture, but I wouldn't underestimate the Northern European psyche that is buried deep in the Irish mind. You can particularly see this coming out stronger in young, well educated Irish people who are increasingly feed up with the "sure it is grand" attitude of "old Ireland" and are looking for quality infrastructure not to different from the best of mainland Europe.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Currently,the prevailing think within Dublin's Public Transport Administration is to keep everything as lose to the "Traditional" as possible.

How much is that actually down to the planners and how much is it due to fear from politicians to take on the nettle that is CIE unions and management?

AlekSmart wrote: »

One example of this will soon be visible on the likes of the 4,9,11 and 13 Bus routes,as Dublin Bus moves to it's Summer Timetables on selected routes.

The Summer Timetable features a reduction in duties operated to allow for School and College holidays...but..and it's a BIG "but".....nobody appears to have realized that locations such as St Patricks College and DCU now operate 12 months of the year,with literally thousands of young Foreign Students arriving to take up residence in the Campuses for the summer.

Most Busdrivers would be thinking along the lines of "We could do with an extra few duties here"...whilst the NTA appear to be happy with.... " I wonder if we can take another duty off without anybody noticing".

But didn't such summer timetables exist for years at DB before the NTA came into existence?

Isn't it really just a case of the NTA mostly inheriting the existing baggage of DB and BE routes, timetables and work practises?

After all wasn't it the NTA who introduced a special low rate, fixed fare Leap card specifically for these foreign language students so that they board the bus quicker then almost anyone else?

I find it very noticeable that any changes that is non core to work practises, RTPI, Leap cards, journey planners, etc. get made very quickly by the NTA.

While changes to core work practices, seem to take for ever and often end up going to strikes and demand for pay increases! This makes me suspect that it is CIE unions and management who are the biggest blockers to substantial change in public transport.

I'd hate to work for the NTA, it most be nightmare. You come up with great plans, that match European best practices and they constantly get shot down by politicians, car park owners, CIE management and unions, etc.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps,with Enda Kenny now stepping back,we could entice Angela Merkel to take over on a Caretaker basis ?

I'd think that you would see sweeping changes and any union that tried to block those changes in the way Irish transport unions tend to do, would be quickly shown the door.

Germany does have strong unions, but their attitude is VERY different to Irish unions. Unlike Irish unions, they don't see their employer and government as the enemy. Instead they work closely with them for the benefit of not only their own members, but for the benefit of their company, passengers and the wider community.

There is a lot more of everyone working together to improve things for all and give and take.

If a German union acted the way that the CIE unions did during the recent BE strike, trying to hold the country to ransom for weeks on end, threatening passengers and drivers of a private bus company, secondary strikes and calling elected representatives of their country "blue shirts" and other communist nonsense, trust me Merkel would very quickly show them the door. Such carry on would not be accepted in German society for even a moment. And frankly it is also increasingly becoming less accepted in Irish society too.

antoinolachtnai · 18-05-2017 1:58pm

murphaph wrote: »

We could lengthen trams and platforms (installing temporary wooden extensions until permanent extensions are in place) to increase capacity without running extra trams but I still believe that it would be eminently possible to run a tram every 2 minutes (so 30tph instead of 2, adding 50% capacity).

There is no problem with 2 Luas lines crossing each other at this sort of frequency. The problem is road based traffic must be de-prioritised in the vicinity of Luas for this to work.

It would NOT work today, because it would hinder the cross city bus routes far too much (I'm not even considering cars as to be honest we're beyond that. We have to sacrifice private car access to the core city centre if we are to move forward at all), but we're talking about this in the context of a complete overhaul of the bus network, which could be designed with a prioritised Luas in place.

This is just unrealistic. The problem isn't anything to do with cross-city routes. The problem is having two high frequency railways crossing each other at grade.

Do you know of somewhere in the world where there are trains crossing each other at-grade with a two minute frequency and 52 meter trains travelling at low speed? From what I can see it really won't work. Even when things are going well, it will take up to one minute for two trams to pass in one direction. This will double the headway between trams in the other direction, and this will have knock-on effects as trams will end up bunching and there will be scrums at the stations as a result of trams being even a minute late, resulting in still further bunching and delays. Occasionally there will be a long wait between door-openings. On a tram with 500 occupants on a sunny day, this won't be much fun at all.

dublinman1990 · 19-05-2017 9:32pm

I just got some updated info about Shane Ross being interviewed on Morning Ireland today.

He said on the programme that he is to launch new buses and redesign of the DB network by the end of May. When asked about how many new routes or buses were needed for the redesign; he said didnt know. He said he couldnt reveal that information before hand.

He also launching a consultation about the redesign in which he said it would take between two to three years.

thomasj · 19-05-2017 9:53pm

https://twitter.com/morningireland/status/865540885781463040

dublinman1990 · 19-05-2017 10:02pm

I have more info on this that after searching the topic on Google. I read the following info from the Roebuck Resident's Association.

The first area to have a public workshop on this redesign will be held with the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Public Participation Network on the 2nd of June.

Members of this PPN who take sit on the Transportation and County-Wide Movement Strategic Policy Committee are invited to take part in the workshop.

Before take part at the workshop; an online survey has to be completed by all DLR PPN members to share their experience and knowledge of the bus routes that affect people living in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown.

The responses to this survey will be written into a briefing document for the DLR PPN Representatives attending this workshop.

The link to the survey is here. It has a deadline of Midnight on Sunday the 21st of May to be finished.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfMmi9gkFmM6Q9Pi_vet7xfc8BMqnBc_MYehPDfKBtI47rfMw/viewform

StreetLight · 20-05-2017 4:40am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

He said on the programme that he is to launch new buses and redesign of the DB network by the end of May.

Does that mean additional buses, or just replacements for older ones?

AlekSmart · 20-05-2017 9:52am

StreetLight wrote: »

Does that mean additional buses, or just replacements for older ones?

It might indeed.....and then again.....it might not.

Somebody is playing for time here....a lot of time.

As is evidenced by the madcap craziness now being enacted over the Dublin City "Plaza" project,there is no evidence of ANY operational plan having been drawn up and agreed prior to the commencement of Luas BXD.

The Dame St Plaza is shaping up nicely to be the Georges St,Dun Laoighre of Dublin City....with of course,a good deal of commonality between the two administrations to bear in mind.

With the NTA Bus Contracts due for renewal in 2019 anyway,it looks like an 18 month delay to allow for "consultation" will get us over this particular finish line,then,it will be some other administration's problem.

It's a valid question as to whether our Public Administration should be Tendered Out,rather than our Public Transport.:rolleyes:

antoinolachtnai · 20-05-2017 10:09am

Lots of things are tendered out. It doesn't make it less 'public'.

The CIE companies are badly managed. The costs are sky high and the service is pretty poor for the amount of money going into them.

Anyway, tendering is a legal requirement for services not operated in-house by a local or regional authority. This was decided over a decade ago.

Corca Baiscinn · 20-05-2017 3:40pm

StreetLight wrote: »

Does that mean additional buses, or just replacements for older ones?

My understanding is that the NTA Plan the min mentioned in the radio interview isn't about buses as such, rather bus routes but I'm confused by his interview. (You can listen back on rte player, Morning Ireland, about 8 45 I think, first bit is about appointment of judges). A big consultation re bus routes was announced just recently with a Consultant doing a review of all DB routes. then yesterday the Minister pops up and says the NTA will make a big announcement on 31st May but if the consultation is just about to happen not sure what's going to be announced.

PS i should pay more attention, Ixflyer opened this thread by saying that the NTA were going to make a big announcement at the end of this month. Bits of info have come out since as per IT and others re who the consultants are and what is being reviewed but S Ross yesterday must have meant this review when he talked about May 31st

Tickityboo · 20-05-2017 4:56pm

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

My understand is that the NTA Plan the min mentioned in the radio interview isn't about buses as such, rather bus routes but I'm confused by his interview. (You can listen back on rte player, Morning Ireland, about 8 45 I think, first bit is about appointment of judges). A big consultation re bus routes was announced just recently with a Consultant doing a review of all DB routes. then yesterday the Minister pops up and says the NTA will make a big announcement on 31st May but if the consultation is just about to happen not sure what's going to be announced.

It could be who won the tender for the 10℅ of Dublin Bus routes?

LuckyLloyd · 20-05-2017 7:29pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Lots of things are tendered out. It doesn't make it less 'public'.

The CIE companies are badly managed. The costs are sky high and the service is pretty poor for the amount of money going into them.

Anyway, tendering is a legal requirement for services not operated in-house by a local or regional authority. This was decided over a decade ago.

Shane Ross, again, came across as entirely incompetent in that interview. While he may satisfy some people's ideological leanings on the matter of public transport, he certainly is not doing a good job with the brief.

mortimer33 · 20-05-2017 9:39pm

According to the Minister:
"In addition, at the end of May, the NTA will launch an important new initiative proposing a radical transformation of the bus system in the GDA that will involve, inter alia, the development of a network of 'next generation' bus corridors and a complete redesign of the network to be accompanied by a network of bus-based park and ride sites at strategic locations. "

dfx- · 23-05-2017 5:37am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Shane Ross, again, came across as entirely incompetent in that interview. While he may satisfy some people's ideological leanings on the matter of public transport, he certainly is not doing a good job with the brief.

His opinion on public transport seems to start and end with breaking up 'CIE' which he came into the role with and as you say suits those with that ideology.

Beyond that, he has had nothing to contribute or offer.

AlekSmart · 23-05-2017 11:10am

mortimer33 wrote: »

According to the Minister:
"In addition, at the end of May, the NTA will launch an important new initiative proposing a radical transformation of the bus system in the GDA that will involve, inter alia, the development of a network of 'next generation' bus corridors and a complete redesign of the network to be accompanied by a network of bus-based park and ride sites at strategic locations. "

The only "New" element here is the P & R proposal.

It is perhaps a good barometer of how little understanding of the Public Transport concept our Public Administrators have,that Dublin remains totally devoid of dedicated P&R sites,in spite of an abundance of sites on the periphery of the City.

However,I remain sceptical that Minister Ross,and the NTA,are visualising anything more than some Hard-Standing and a few Bus Shelters,rather than the greater capacity afforded by modular structural steel low-rise multi-storey units capable of maximising the footprint of any given site.

Such sites would require effecient and dedicated management on a 24/7/365 basis,but would,I believe offer great opportunities for improving our City's environment....as a direct counterpoint to maintaining access to Arnotts and BT2's etc etc.... :0

antoinolachtnai · 23-05-2017 4:26pm

I am sorry. I just cannot see the point of this. P+R needs a fast, high frequency service with spare capacity. We do not have any such service and there is little prospect of one.

Parking spaces are not particularly cheap to provide. Multi-storey parking is pretty expensive to provide. Multi-storey also has security and management risks. For rail or air, fair enough, but there is no reason to build a multi-storey P+R for a bus.

Bray Head · 24-05-2017 4:46am

There is no Dublin Bus route fast or frequent enough that I would get out of my car and wait around for.

DART or Luas, yes.

BonnieSituation · 24-05-2017 11:57am

AlekSmart wrote: »

It might indeed.....and then again.....it might not.

Somebody is playing for time here....a lot of time.

As is evidenced by the madcap craziness now being enacted over the Dublin City "Plaza" project,there is no evidence of ANY operational plan having been drawn up and agreed prior to the commencement of Luas BXD.

The Dame St Plaza is shaping up nicely to be the Georges St,Dun Laoighre of Dublin City....with of course,a good deal of commonality between the two administrations to bear in mind.

With the NTA Bus Contracts due for renewal in 2019 anyway,it looks like an 18 month delay to allow for "consultation" will get us over this particular finish line,then,it will be some other administration's problem.

It's a valid question as to whether our Public Administration should be Tendered Out,rather than our Public Transport.:rolleyes:

:D:D:D

Whatever are you trying to say?

BonnieSituation · 24-05-2017 1:33pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Another benefit I see to a move to feeder buses is that it will free up our streets from buses. So less congestion which is welcome.

This is something I was crying out for when they proposed Net Direct and was part of some discussions I had. There is no reason that it shouldn't be implemented. If we're not getting DU and MN/NMN for 10-20 years, then fine. Let's make the buses that we do have work.

There's no need for EVERY bus to travel to the City Centre at the same time. We all know this. All transport planners no this. If for example all us West Dubs had to interchange at Liffey Valley instead of the current meandering situation I'm sure we would have no problem provided the services at both sides were higher frequency and capacity than we have now. It will require some selling but it's for the greater good.

devnull · 24-05-2017 2:02pm

The Consultants who are reviewing and helping design the network have made reference to an article which states the same:

A greater problem might be the city's transit history: the local bus system is so engrained in the culture that people fear losing a "direct" connection to the city center — even though the BRT network that could replace the local buses would get them there more quickly.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2012/10/confusing-and-nonsensical-grandeur-dublin-transport/3657/
via
http://humantransit.org/2012/10/dublin-spaghetti-with-rainbow-sauce-1.html

BonnieSituation · 24-05-2017 2:28pm

devnull wrote: »

The Consultants who are reviewing and helping design the network have made reference to an article which states the same:

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2012/10/confusing-and-nonsensical-grandeur-dublin-transport/3657/
via
http://humantransit.org/2012/10/dublin-spaghetti-with-rainbow-sauce-1.html

This is where politicians come in and ruin the whole project. We all remember the 46A fiasco in DL and Monkstown Farm.

LXFlyer · 24-05-2017 3:02pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

This is where politicians come in and ruin the whole project. We all remember the 46A fiasco in DL and Monkstown Farm.

But that did ultimately go through according to the plan - the 4 was extended, the 63 serves the local area, and the 46a takes the direct route.

LXFlyer · 24-05-2017 3:05pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

This is something I was crying out for when they proposed Net Direct and was part of some discussions I had. There is no reason that it shouldn't be implemented. If we're not getting DU and MN/NMN for 10-20 years, then fine. Let's make the buses that we do have work.

There's no need for EVERY bus to travel to the City Centre at the same time. We all know this. All transport planners no this. If for example all us West Dubs had to interchange at Liffey Valley instead of the current meandering situation I'm sure we would have no problem provided the services at both sides were higher frequency and capacity than we have now. It will require some selling but it's for the greater good.

Unless there is time based ticketing with no penalty for taking a second trip, and the feeder routes are high frequency, then there is absolutely no point in doing this.

Reform of funding and ticketing is absolutely critical. People will not be prepared to pay twice for a trip they can do on a single fare currently.

What meandering is there on the Lucan QBC?

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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