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Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    Prove me wrong with all the Foynes railfreight flows instead of playing Internet Detective.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Given that the AIRR is, shall we say, 'not all going to be delivered', let's say it can provide a road map of the next few decades of rail development.

    Of the proposed projects which do you consider most likely to see the light of day (that aren't currently in progress)

    This is intended to be different from 'which is most important', maybe a few quick wins are possible and there's nothing most politicians like more than a good ribbon cutting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,964 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Mullingar-Athlone as it’s relatively easy and Maynooth-Hazelhatch interconnecter because it’s so crucial.

    Navan after them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,034 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think doubling sections of the Galway line will come before any of that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Aside from Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast, is Galway the busiest intercity line in the country?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    • Assuming that level-crossing removals and line works and speed improvements to facilitate 200 (or 160) km/h running are an ongoing project, then these are all things that can be done incrementally that would improve service time and reliability, and prepare for electrification…
    1. Double-tracking (in this order):
      - Athenry–Galway
      - Portarlington-Athlone
      - Kildare–Kilkenny
      - Maynooth–Mullingar
      Galway should be obvious. Doubling the lines beyond Portarlington and Kildare allows services to Waterford and Galway/Westport/Ballina to make up time they may lose due to commuter-service interference on the current Portarlington-Hazelhatch stretch, or waiting on the remaining single-track sections. Maynooth Mullingar last, because the benefits only come into play when the new Mullingar-Athlone and Maynooth-Hazelhatch links arrive.
    2. The curve at Limerick Junction to allow Limerick line trains east of the Junction to seamlessly join the Cork Line. The benefit isn’t huge without line-speed improvements, but it is cheap, and could connect South Tipperary and Cork with a reasonable service even before any other line improvements. (Waterford is still too far away until the line is improved)

    Then these two medium-size new projects:

    1. Maynooth—Hazelhatch
    2. M3 Parkway—Navan (probably as a DART line)

    That’s the easy stuff, then there’s the bigger ones:

    1. New Inter-city western approach, Portarlington&Kildare–Hazelhatch. Electrified from the start.
    2. New Inter-city Northern approach, Clongriffin–Drogheda. Electrified from the start.

    The order of electrification is a different problem, but the engineer in me leans toward using the Waterford line as a pilot line for this, given that it’s relatively short, and doesn’t branch, so the impact of problems here on other services would be limited.



  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭DoctorPan


    There's tenders currently out for Phases 1&2 for Dublin - Cork Elecrtification, the Navan Line and Portarlington-Galway Capacity Improvements.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Wow, is the Dublin-Cork tender for a consultant to design electrification of the entire route? That's quite a job, it would possibly be the longest electrification project in Europe right now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Caustic but accurate article by David McWilliams in the IT this morning, skewering the self-congratulatory attitude of Official Ireland about real delivery of transport infrastructure.

    "If this is the case, and it seems apparent wherever the State spends public money, then it’s time to call in the big boys, the people who can do this. Difficult as it is to admit, this is the moment when it’s time to take the keys from the parent because they are no longer responsible and give them to a mature provider, get value for money and get these projects done on time and within budget."

    All the guff about on time and on budget when, for example, the Metro for Swords has been on the drawing board since 2002 and earlier is shown up for what it is. Getting anything from the All-island Strategy delivered will be impossible unless Official Ireland finally moves away from rail projects being colouredy lines on reams of paper redesigned every few years or so, to real life project management and implementation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Economics101


    McWilliams' piece sounds a bit like guff to me.

    Some years ago, Irish Ral took a failed signalling project in-house and delivered a series of mini-CTC signalling projects quite successfully. There are probably other examples whan compaiies are left to do work on their own network (they know how things work), whereas at present we have a flying circus of NTA, TII, DoT, IE, numerous consultants, etc all spending endless time and energy on discussion, planning, evaluation and so on. And we are about to add a Department of Infrastructure to this clown show.

    Keep it simple!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    McWilliams is an opinion columnist, not an economist. Whatever he knew about economics always took second place to a catchy phrase and a neat narrative.

    We have the same thing here. Simple narrative (government can't do infrastructure better than private companies) and lots of overstretched metaphors.

    But, in typical McWilliams fashion, he hasn't even done his research: turns out his great idea is basically how things are already done. BAM is building the Children's Hospital, not HSE. HSE is the customer, not the project manager. (Overruns are due to changing requirements, and that is HSE's desk, but McWilliams doesn't address the reality that large projects are often changed during their delivery). Similarly, when Metrolink is awarded, it will be awarded on a contract that gives the contractor full control of how the project is managed and delivered - TII's job will be to check that it's what they asked for, and pay the money. The design of this project was done the same way: a private engineering company (Jacobs?) took the requirements from the customer (TII) and produced the design.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Westernview


    All the indications are that the chinese or Italians would design and build it quicker and more efficiently but only within a drastically reformed planning system. The Chinese are probably used to driving projects through any red tape but it could be a frustrating experience here for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Then drastically reform it then. The Sole Member tribunals worked quickly to implement the original Luas lines, unlike ABP's sclerotic process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Agreed. Whatever it takes. With a rapidly increasing population we are facing disaster if things aren't speeded up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Isn't that how it works already? The state doesn't direct build anything it hires firms to do it.

    The suggestion the Chinese state builder should be handed a contract without competition is ridiculous.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It ultimately comes back to the planning system. Which is designed to handle extensions to semi-ds not major infrastructure. We need to start with a planning amnesty for all major infrastructure projects and all housing projects involving 100+ units. Clear that backlog then put in new rules. 6 months max time for abp to decide, after that it's an automatic grant of planning. Abolish oral hearings, wich are bascially bits of compulsory attendance theatre for aging narcissists. Then abolish the JR process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Just read the McWilliams piece in yesterday's Irish Times. It's a disgrace: lacking in hard evidence, never mentions the planning system (i.e. not seeing the elephant in the room). What Italian architects engaged by the Catholic Church in the Nineteenth Cantury has to do with 21st Century transport infrastructure is beyone me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I looked briefly online for more information about McWilliam's favoured Chinese solution to an Irish problem. Apart from a lot of uncritical guff from Chinese sources, it would appear that the Serbian-Hungarian rail development is part of the Belt and Road initiative, specifically to enable easier access to Europe for Chinese exports routed via Piraeus.

    If there is any country in Europe which is irrelevant for the Belt and Road initiative, then it's Ireland. Just look at a map. 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭scrabtom


    McWilliams is some gobshite.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The Chinese state construction company uses slave labour also. And although that might be banned in Serbia, I wouldn't be shocked if the project there did benefit from slave labour in some way. They also don't have a hyper consultative planning system



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Westernview


    That's not an accurate summary of what he said at all. He presents figures throughout the piece. What hard evidence are you looking for? He never said that Italians of the 19th century have anything to do with the infrastructure of today. Thats plain daft. He said they were brought in at the time to provide the expertise that we didn't have. This is to illustrate the logic of bringing in expertise where its lacking. He says that Italians today are better at building rail and that the same logic can apply today.

    He has often mentioned issues with the planning system and land hoarding etc. That's a given. What he is focusing on in this article is our difficulty in building infrastructure irrespective of planning. No one can say that planning is the only reason for all the overruns in the children's hospital. It has been badly managed since it broke ground.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We have built absolutely loads of infrastructure very well - the motorway network, luas cross city. The planning is clearly the main problem and that's just general doomerism.

    The NCH is a singular example of poor infrastructure building for numerous reasons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,294 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Belt and road also involves basically selling your country to the Chinese. I know some people will say we already sold to Microsoft or the EU or blaa blaa but the Chinese are at a whole other level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Westernview


    The Metro is looking like it could cost up to 1bn per km. There is every reason to believe an Italian company would build it for much less. The existing Luas is a great piece of infrastructure but also significantly overran in cost and timeline. Brushing off the cost of the NCH 'for numerous reasons' doesn't mask the disastrous project management. Sure we can build stuff and have done very well but if you're satisfied with the level of spending, overruns and claims good for you. I'd prefer a more efficient means of delivery.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    No contractor has been appointed to build the metrolink. It will be a private company/consortium that will build it. It could easily be an Italian company when the contract it awarded.

    But is in no way looking like costing €19bn.

    Also the motorway network was built on time and on budget. Luas Cross City was also on time and on budget. The NCH is the outlier in infrastructure construction in Ireland, not the norm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,034 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Just to correct one point.

    LUAS Cross-City was opened in December 2017 without sufficient trams having been delivered to maintain existing service levels along the line between St. Stephen's Green and Brides Glen.

    This caused major capacity problems south of Sandyford, where frequency had to be cut in order to meet the political deadline for the cross-city section to open in December 2017.

    It was six months later in June 2018 before that was finally corrected and service levels restored.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    What you are suggesting is completely illegal so probably shouldn't do that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Some of what you say is quite wrong, especially any amnesty, Abolishing Judicual Review might well run up against basic Constitutional barriers. However a 6-month deadline for planners would make them concentrate on really serious cases ( they will always argue for more resources ad infinitum), and maybe a serious curtailment of oral hearings would be



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The government has the power to change the law, which is the point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Also just look at the CACR project, flying along. Reason: the project bypassed the planning 'system'



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The government doesn't have the power to change the constitution or EU law, which is my point.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    No it didn't. The double tracking needed an RO from ABP, which it received last November.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The point was that the built infrastructure was on time and on budget. That was what the discussion was about. It wasn't a concern of the contractor SISK as to whether or not there were enough trams to run a full service and it's pretty irrelevant to the discussion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Yes - let's keep on redesigning projects forever instead of building them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    How would hiring a Chinese contractor stop that though?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,034 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I was thinking of the capital spend on the project as a whole to be honest.

    I take your point re Sisk.



  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Meanwhile a letter in this morning's IT (not mine) makes the point Extra submissions=Delay=More cost of construction due to inflation. I don't give a damn what contractor builds it, it needs to be built sooner than later.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,739 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Another very underrated project to add to your list is the second runway at Dublin Airport. No hundreds of articles about how terrible we are at planning and delivering - it was delivered with the minimum of fuss and the only news items you see about it now are complaints about the way that it's being used.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    Except the North Runway has been delivered within the airport’s existing land bank. That land and the associated flight paths have been safeguarded for over 40 years.

    If that hadnt been the case and DAA had to rely on CPOs etc we would all be here on a thread discussing the best location for the 2nd Dublin Airport



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,642 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Baldonnel is the obvious one, link it to the Red Luas line.



  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭Paul2019


    Think you might get one or two noise complaints if Baldonnel is made into a civil airport for Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,034 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Not for the huge numbers of residents under the main runway approach it isn't.

    It was and is a complete non-starter.

    Anyway that's waaaaayy off topic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Economics101


    You should take a quick look at the map before posting this nonsense.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,175 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    I see no reason why Baldinnell couldn’t be made into a civil airport? There are mostly industrial estates under the flight path according to SDCC‘s development plan maps. Residential houses could be compensated or CPOd.



  • Registered Users Posts: 638 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Celbridge is very nearby...

    I don't think it would work anyway due to proximity to Dublin Airport and angle of runway - would surely create a nightmare for air traffic control. Though I'm no air traffic control expert..



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Economics101


    You have to look at the extended centerline of Baldonnell Runway 10-28. It goes East over a huge swathe of South Dublin as far as Killiney. Civil airpors generally have long straight ILS approaches. As for Easterly take-offs (from Rwy 10) you can't have a Right turn until well clear of the Dublin mountains so its take-off all the way to Killiney.

    If you think a few houses in St Margarets could cause such a fuss, what about a few hundred thousand Southsiders?

    PS: Why is this in the all-Ireland rail network thread?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,748 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Tens of thousands of houses in the noise footprint.

    Conflict with Dublin Airport flight paths.

    Mountains nearby constraining available flight paths still further.

    Site is far too small.

    Transport links poor (yes, even with the N7)

    Most importantly of all - we already have a perfectly good airport with two runways, room to expand and a metro on the way. The passenger cap in Dublin is a nonsense even with "only" the existing two terminals - it can handle far more.

    Finally - who would pay for this folly?

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,148 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Anyway, Dublin is already getting a second airport. In Arklow.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,940 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Can we keep on topic.

    Airports do not figure in the Cross Border Review.



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