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Couples on 107K can’t afford a home

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,192 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I think we need more social housing. It's that simple. By "social housing", I mean low rent, functional one/two bedroom apartments mostly and not just for the perpetually unemployed. People who are reasonably fiscally responsible should be able to afford independently and if they want something better, they can study and train for a higher-paying job.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,635 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    So this has worked in reducing rents and house prices from higher levels to more manageable levels in other capital cities?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    One example when I was in Sydney few years ago our rent was €723 a month. A 3 bed house in the same area was about €1100. We saved nearly €400 a month in rent, that was 7 years ago. Electricity was cheaper with less rooms. There's a bit of an issue over there with housing but as of today a 3 bedroom house is €2890 and a 2 bedroom apt is €2170 pm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,083 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The main point is that a deflation in property prices has never, ever, resulted in an economic boom.



  • Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭Grey123


    Are they not coming back? I’ve had to do multiple bits myself in the last two years where I either couldn’t justify cost or get someone to do it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,635 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Again, my question - has "building up" in any city managed to bring the cost of housing down?

    If not, what has managed to bring the cost of housing down?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,635 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Or indeed the other way around - any time we have seen deflation in property prices we have seen plenty of other negative consequences……

    (Again I am not saying that we shouldn't be doing something about the increasing unafordability of housing but simple statements like we should build higher - that'll bring the prices down…. - make no sense.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭Get Real


    Why is the 375k property you googled and found at the limit of what the sample couple in the article can borrow though?

    107k x 4= 428k. The article presumed both have ten years working. I'd hope to god they at least managed to put away a fiver a day in savings in that time. So 20k each saved. 40k total. Total budget c465k.

    So a couple on 107k can indeed buy a house, and not in an area that involves a 3hr commute either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Nothing wrong with Donaghmede. Would love a gaff in Donaghmede.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    More apartments means less demand for houses. Less demand for houses means prices are lower. Our demand massively outstrips supply hence higher prices. It's basic economics.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,717 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    …jesus christ, this is not what happens in reality, this is just nonsense neoclassical economics, which is just completely disconnected from reality…..

    …the main culprit in rising prices is largely to do with the availability of credit in an economy, the more credit is pushed into property markets, the higher prices rise, this has happened in most economies around the world that have tried this approach, including ireland….

    …under such conditions, the higher the demand, the higher prices go, and also the higher supply, the higher prices go, i.e. it creates a positive feedback loop in regards pricing….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,635 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    So show me a country where building more apartments has led to a reduction in house prices.....

    Reducing the cost of housing is unfortunately anything but basic



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    Your question was about other capital cities. I gave you an example of my experience living in Sydney which is a capital city. If you don't like my example that's fine we'll just move on and let go of the back and forth. It's not fair on the other posters who want to have their own say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,329 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Ah sure a half million mortgage is nothing these days I guess.. peanuts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,816 ✭✭✭billie1b


    The only thing that needs to match is your name, you can put any details you want on your passport details and the system is none the wiser. Once the passport you present to the desk agent matches you then you're allowed to board.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,578 ✭✭✭baldbear


    Agree. I think it's a great area TBH. But lots I know don't. Snobs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,635 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    So have house prices in Sydney gone down over time due to the increasing numbers of apartments being built?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    I never said that. They always had appartments from day one. If they didn't have appartments and houses only the house prices would be twice the price today. I lived there nearly 20 years and every couple without kids lived in appartments. If they all needed houses due to lack of appartments what do you think would have happened to house prices. I lived in an appartment block of 200 appartments .How much land would 200 houses take. Again you asked in your post about other capital cities and I gave you an example of my experience of living in a capital city. Just you don't like my answer doesn't mean you have to keep questioning me. This isn't an interogation I gave an example you asked for I'm trying to watch a match this will be my last post on the matter. Enjoy your evening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,635 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    I'd have no issues with your answer if they answered the question I had asked. You even used figures in your post that directly contradicted what you were trying to say.

    Building high hasn't reduced property prices in Sydney. They continue to rise, pardon the pun. It is exceptionally difficult to reduce property prices in a managed way and I'd suggest it's not been done before outside of the crashes we have seen that have caused chaos with peoples lives and in those crashes very few people could actually buy a property despite their relative cost at those times.

    People say match supply with demand and things will improve. That's not going to happen any time soon unfortunately. So what other options are available to manage a reduction in prices?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Building more housing reduces prices and rents. This is both obvious and proven.

    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4629628

    https://www.helsinki.fi/assets/drupal/2021-09/cristina_bratu_the_effects_of_increasing_housing_supply_through_market-rate_construction.pdf



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,635 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Of course, obvious is obvious.....

    However what country has managed to reduce housing prices and rents by building more houses? Didn't we build more houses back circa 2003 to 2008? It took a global financial crash to bring house prices and rents down then..... Building more houses didn't bring down prices.........

    Right now, how do you build more houses to bring down prices when we are told the costs involved in building houses AND apartments make the sales prices of these very very expensive.....

    Everyone thinks these are uniquely Irish problems and easily solved if the will were there.

    As others have said the Irish state had a vested interest on getting property prices up from their lows around 2010 to 2012 as it directly or indirectly owned a lot of mortgage debt/housing.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Japan for one, though they have simply never let house prices get wildly out of control in the first place.

    Several states in the US such as Texas which have more liberal planning/zoning laws.

    Generally speaking, everywhere that has allowed house pricing to get out of control has done very little to fix it with supply side solutions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,083 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Detroit managed to collapse property prices. They first had to destroy their industry though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 252 ✭✭mehico


    Why has government policy failed so badly with regard to housing though?

    Simon Coveney famously said back in around 2016 that he was going to solve the housing crises after he requested to be made housing minister and blamed FF for causing the problem in the first place. Then after around just one year in this post he was accused by Micheál Martin of leaving the housing department because he couldn’t deal with it so ran away from the problem.

    FF are now responsible for housing but what has changed since this ministry swapped from FG back to FF?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,865 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    It is a 100% proven fact that if you increase supply you reduce demand. Even with other factors took into consideration Ireland still needs to build, build, build and build even more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,635 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Again, this is obvious.....

    How does it happen in practice....we have seen numerous developers saying that it simply costs too much to build affordably and that there is a shortage of labour. How do you build units faster at affordable prices,..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,635 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    So again where have you seen that has managed to bring down house prices without tanking the economy?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,865 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    You build loads and loads of the cheapest option available for a start even if the homes are only slightly better than bedsits. If the government need to borrow a lot more money for this than so be it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,637 ✭✭✭jackboy


    As I said before, in all seriousness, building houses is just way too slow to put a dent on the crises. We need to create large scale trailer parks like they have in the US. Building houses is a long term solution.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,066 ✭✭✭amacca


    I can see that approach storing up problems for the not too distant future too

    Tbh I think its a dsmned if you do, damned if you don't rock and hard place type of situation

    So it will continue on and muddle through over the decades in an entirely unsatisfactory fashion imo....

    And far be it from me to be a particularly devoted eco warrior type but I also wonder, when do we reach a point where it might be wise not to build anymore as we destroying the means of supporting ourselves with concrete wastelands

    I've done well out of it but when is infinite economic growth as a policy going to run out of road?



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