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Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    McWilliams is an opinion columnist, not an economist. Whatever he knew about economics always took second place to a catchy phrase and a neat narrative.

    We have the same thing here. Simple narrative (government can't do infrastructure better than private companies) and lots of overstretched metaphors.

    But, in typical McWilliams fashion, he hasn't even done his research: turns out his great idea is basically how things are already done. BAM is building the Children's Hospital, not HSE. HSE is the customer, not the project manager. (Overruns are due to changing requirements, and that is HSE's desk, but McWilliams doesn't address the reality that large projects are often changed during their delivery). Similarly, when Metrolink is awarded, it will be awarded on a contract that gives the contractor full control of how the project is managed and delivered - TII's job will be to check that it's what they asked for, and pay the money. The design of this project was done the same way: a private engineering company (Jacobs?) took the requirements from the customer (TII) and produced the design.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Westernview


    All the indications are that the chinese or Italians would design and build it quicker and more efficiently but only within a drastically reformed planning system. The Chinese are probably used to driving projects through any red tape but it could be a frustrating experience here for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Then drastically reform it then. The Sole Member tribunals worked quickly to implement the original Luas lines, unlike ABP's sclerotic process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Agreed. Whatever it takes. With a rapidly increasing population we are facing disaster if things aren't speeded up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,731 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Isn't that how it works already? The state doesn't direct build anything it hires firms to do it.

    The suggestion the Chinese state builder should be handed a contract without competition is ridiculous.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,731 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It ultimately comes back to the planning system. Which is designed to handle extensions to semi-ds not major infrastructure. We need to start with a planning amnesty for all major infrastructure projects and all housing projects involving 100+ units. Clear that backlog then put in new rules. 6 months max time for abp to decide, after that it's an automatic grant of planning. Abolish oral hearings, wich are bascially bits of compulsory attendance theatre for aging narcissists. Then abolish the JR process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,809 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Just read the McWilliams piece in yesterday's Irish Times. It's a disgrace: lacking in hard evidence, never mentions the planning system (i.e. not seeing the elephant in the room). What Italian architects engaged by the Catholic Church in the Nineteenth Cantury has to do with 21st Century transport infrastructure is beyone me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,809 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I looked briefly online for more information about McWilliam's favoured Chinese solution to an Irish problem. Apart from a lot of uncritical guff from Chinese sources, it would appear that the Serbian-Hungarian rail development is part of the Belt and Road initiative, specifically to enable easier access to Europe for Chinese exports routed via Piraeus.

    If there is any country in Europe which is irrelevant for the Belt and Road initiative, then it's Ireland. Just look at a map. 😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 49 scrabtom


    McWilliams is some gobshite.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,731 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The Chinese state construction company uses slave labour also. And although that might be banned in Serbia, I wouldn't be shocked if the project there did benefit from slave labour in some way. They also don't have a hyper consultative planning system



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Westernview


    That's not an accurate summary of what he said at all. He presents figures throughout the piece. What hard evidence are you looking for? He never said that Italians of the 19th century have anything to do with the infrastructure of today. Thats plain daft. He said they were brought in at the time to provide the expertise that we didn't have. This is to illustrate the logic of bringing in expertise where its lacking. He says that Italians today are better at building rail and that the same logic can apply today.

    He has often mentioned issues with the planning system and land hoarding etc. That's a given. What he is focusing on in this article is our difficulty in building infrastructure irrespective of planning. No one can say that planning is the only reason for all the overruns in the children's hospital. It has been badly managed since it broke ground.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We have built absolutely loads of infrastructure very well - the motorway network, luas cross city. The planning is clearly the main problem and that's just general doomerism.

    The NCH is a singular example of poor infrastructure building for numerous reasons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,921 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Belt and road also involves basically selling your country to the Chinese. I know some people will say we already sold to Microsoft or the EU or blaa blaa but the Chinese are at a whole other level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Westernview


    The Metro is looking like it could cost up to 1bn per km. There is every reason to believe an Italian company would build it for much less. The existing Luas is a great piece of infrastructure but also significantly overran in cost and timeline. Brushing off the cost of the NCH 'for numerous reasons' doesn't mask the disastrous project management. Sure we can build stuff and have done very well but if you're satisfied with the level of spending, overruns and claims good for you. I'd prefer a more efficient means of delivery.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,153 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    No contractor has been appointed to build the metrolink. It will be a private company/consortium that will build it. It could easily be an Italian company when the contract it awarded.

    But is in no way looking like costing €19bn.

    Also the motorway network was built on time and on budget. Luas Cross City was also on time and on budget. The NCH is the outlier in infrastructure construction in Ireland, not the norm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,885 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Just to correct one point.

    LUAS Cross-City was opened in December 2017 without sufficient trams having been delivered to maintain existing service levels along the line between St. Stephen's Green and Brides Glen.

    This caused major capacity problems south of Sandyford, where frequency had to be cut in order to meet the political deadline for the cross-city section to open in December 2017.

    It was six months later in June 2018 before that was finally corrected and service levels restored.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,005 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    What you are suggesting is completely illegal so probably shouldn't do that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,809 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Some of what you say is quite wrong, especially any amnesty, Abolishing Judicual Review might well run up against basic Constitutional barriers. However a 6-month deadline for planners would make them concentrate on really serious cases ( they will always argue for more resources ad infinitum), and maybe a serious curtailment of oral hearings would be



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,731 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The government has the power to change the law, which is the point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,731 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Also just look at the CACR project, flying along. Reason: the project bypassed the planning 'system'



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,005 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The government doesn't have the power to change the constitution or EU law, which is my point.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,153 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    No it didn't. The double tracking needed an RO from ABP, which it received last November.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,153 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The point was that the built infrastructure was on time and on budget. That was what the discussion was about. It wasn't a concern of the contractor SISK as to whether or not there were enough trams to run a full service and it's pretty irrelevant to the discussion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Yes - let's keep on redesigning projects forever instead of building them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,731 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    How would hiring a Chinese contractor stop that though?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,885 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I was thinking of the capital spend on the project as a whole to be honest.

    I take your point re Sisk.



  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Meanwhile a letter in this morning's IT (not mine) makes the point Extra submissions=Delay=More cost of construction due to inflation. I don't give a damn what contractor builds it, it needs to be built sooner than later.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Another very underrated project to add to your list is the second runway at Dublin Airport. No hundreds of articles about how terrible we are at planning and delivering - it was delivered with the minimum of fuss and the only news items you see about it now are complaints about the way that it's being used.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    Except the North Runway has been delivered within the airport’s existing land bank. That land and the associated flight paths have been safeguarded for over 40 years.

    If that hadnt been the case and DAA had to rely on CPOs etc we would all be here on a thread discussing the best location for the 2nd Dublin Airport



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,213 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Baldonnel is the obvious one, link it to the Red Luas line.



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