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Anyone else feel ashamed of getting the Covid shots?

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Which unvaccinated group is this? Were there no vaccinations in Ukraine? Have several of the groups that might have given them Covid not already either been infected or vaccinated or both?

    I am not saying your position is wrong, but simply that nothing you say backs it up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 355 ✭✭vswr


    I just don't understand why the want to study, where even if they came to Ireland in 2022, they would have had nearly 2 years worth of potential sporadic exposure.

    Unless Ukraine has magically been COVID free?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,321 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    There seems to be some regret among health professionals if nearly half believe they cause serious side effects and don't work. They should know better than anyone.

    Nearly 42 percent of healthcare workers are worried that Covid-19 vaccines will cause serious side-effects, while 44 percent don’t believe the jab offers them protection against the virus, a new study has found.

    A total of 595 nurses, doctors and other healthcare professionals employed by the Health Service Executive (HSE) in Dublin and the northeast responded to a survey of attitudes in relation to Covid and influenza vaccines.

    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/two-five-healthcare-workers-fear-33529054



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,563 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    That is very surprising. I did hear last year there was reluctance amongst health care workers regarding taking more Covid boosters but those stats are quite dramatic. I'd love to see more details including how the questions were framed.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,321 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    The report is here https://imj.ie/attitudes-towards-covid-19-and-influenza-vaccination-in-healthcare-workers/ , I find it confused in it's answers, still 42% believing it will causes "serious" side effets is a huge number, I would have expected a lot less.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,846 ✭✭✭Ten Pin


    Health Care Worker flu and covid vaccine uptake last autumn / winter from document "COVID-19 Vaccination Uptake in Ireland - week ending 18 February 2024"

    Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20240406153159/https:/www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/vaccination/covid-19vaccinationuptakereports/2024/

    "Uptake of Autumn Booster & Seasonal Influenza doses by HSE HCWs since 18/09/2023 to 05/02/2024

    In total 110,073 records for HSE Health and Care Workers were included in the analysis.

    Overall Uptake

    • 20,447 received COVID-19 vaccine, an uptake of 18.6%

    • 40,850 received influenza vaccine, an uptake of 37.1%

    Amongst those who received a vaccine:

    • 18,977 (17.2% of all HSE HCWs) received both COVID-19 and influenza vaccine

    • 1,470 (1.3% of all HSE HCWs) received COVID-19 vaccine only

    • 21,873 (19.9% of all HSE HCWs) received influenza vaccine only

    • 67,753 (61.6% of all HSE HCWs) did not receive any COVID-19 or influenza vaccine

    • 89,626 (81.4% of all HSE HCWs) did not get a COVID-19 vaccine

    • 69,223 (62.9% of all HSE HCWs) did not get an influenza vaccine"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,846 ✭✭✭Ten Pin


    deleted double post



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,983 ✭✭✭Shoog


    You should be concerned that this was by its very nature a self selecting survey - which are never truly representative of a population. This is a very low grad report because of its choice of methodology. It maybe reflective of reality - but its very difficult to say with any certainty.

    There are systematic ways of doing this type of survey which avoid self selection biases.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,563 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Wow. 18.6% is an extremely poor uptake figure for Covid booster. Less than half the Flu uptake.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Reuters Fact Check. February 12th 2024.

    Preventing transmission never required for COVID vaccines initial approval. Pfizer vax did reduce transmission of early variant.

    Social media users are circulating video clips of testimony by a Pfizer executive that is said to "admit" that the company and it`s parner BioNTech did not test whether their mRNA based COVID-19 vaccine reduced virus transmission prior to rolling it out - which is something the companies were not required to do for initial regulatory approval nor did they claim to have done.

    To get emergency approval companies needed to show that the vaccines were safe and prevented vaccinated people from getting ill. They did not have to show that vaccines would also prevent people from spreading the virus to others.



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,128 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Not sure why you're quoting me with this old chestnut, I never mentioned anything about transmission.

    Your fact check confirms both what Yale Medicine said and I said.

    To get emergency approval companies needed to show that the vaccines were safe and prevented vaccinated people from getting ill.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Which they did where unvaccinated were 4 times more likely to require hospitalisation and 11 times more likely to require ICU admission than those vaccinated, so I don`t see what point you are attempting to make.

    At no stage, be it the vaccine manufactures, the World Health Organisation, health authorities etc. ever stated vaccines would provide 100% immunnity from infection.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,128 ✭✭✭hometruths


    The point I was trying to make, and citing Yale Medical do so, was that vaccines were initially approved to prevent symptomatic Covid 19.

    If you disagree with that, fair enough, I don't really care.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    For vaccine to prevent symptomatic COVID-19 they would have had to have been capable of providing 100% immunity from infection. Neither the vaccine manufacturers or anybody else claimed they would provide that.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,128 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Just like prevention of transmission I never said anything about 100% efficacy, so you can include me and Yale Medical in that group too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I really do not get what point you are making.

    To prevent transmission a vaccine would have to have 100% efficacy against transmisssion, and that was neither a claim that COVID-19 manufactures (or anybody else for that matter) made nor was it a requirement for initial emergency approval.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,128 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Once again I didn't mention anything about the vaccines being approved to prevent transmission, they were not approved to do so, and I did not claim that they were.

    I really do not get what point you are making.

    That much is very clear, and instead you're trying to argue a point we're in agreement on, might it not just be simpler to drop it and move on?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,810 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    That's not what the report says though.

    What you said: 42% believing it will case

    Versus

    Nearly 42 percent of healthcare workers are worried that Covid-19 vaccines will cause serious side-effects.

    There's a huge difference between claiming something will be the case, and being worried it might be. It also gives no indication of number of cases of side effects.

    The questions in the report seemed to be framed from a particular perspective, rather than trying to get an overall assessment. What I mean by that is it doesn't ask what question which is, balancing advantages, risk of side effects etc would you recommend vaccination to protect against outcomes including hospitalization. That might clear up some of the confusion.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Your own post was "that vaccines were initially approved to prevent symptomaic covid-19". As Reuters fact-check shows they weren`t. And not only was it not a requirement for initial emergency approval, the vaccine manufacturers at no stage claimed they would. To claim that would have required 100% efficacy.

    Pfizer-BioNtech`s Phase 3 clinical data for it`s original vaccine in December 2020 showed 95% efficacy for preventing symptomatic Covid-19, so where some appear to have got this idea that the vaccines were a 100% guarantee of not becoming infected is, to say the least, strange.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,128 ✭✭✭hometruths


    So your Reuters fact check says for approval the vaccines needed to demonstrate they "prevented vaccinated people from getting ill."

    And you think this fact check contradicts my statement that the vaccines were approved to "prevent symptomatic Covid 19".

    So I can only assume you don't consider people with Covid 19 symptoms as ill.

    If so, I don't care, we can agree to disagree.

    And if you have an issue with the people who claim the Covid vaccines were a 100% guarantee of not becoming infected, take it up with them, not me.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    But that is the point you are missing when you say "that vaccines were initially approved to prevent symptomatic transmission". Neither the manufacturers or anybody else claimed they were or would. How anybody who even looked at the efficacy results from the Phase 3 clinical trials could somehow believe otherwise for the initial emergency authorisation is beyond comprehension.

    Especially when the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved the initially emergency authorisation on 11th. Dec 2020 stated "At this time, data is not available to make a detrmination about how long the vaccine will provide protection, nor is there evidence that the vaccine prevents transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from person to person.

    If you believe otherwise then that is up to you, but the facts just do not back it up.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,128 ✭✭✭hometruths


    But that is the point you are missing when you say "that vaccines were initially approved to prevent symptomatic transmission"

    But here's the problem - I didn't say that, and you putting it in quotation marks doesn't change that.

    And you know I didn't say it.

    Not only because I've now told you four times I didn't say it, and also stated unambiguously that the vaccines were not approved to prevent transmission.

    But also because I know you've read my posts looking for the gotcha to quote, and if I had posted this you would have quoted it gleefully and linked the post containing the statement you've taken such an issue with.

    The only reason you haven't is because you couldn't find it and you know I didn't say it. Your reduced to simple assertions emboldened with quotation marks speaks volumes.

    I agree with you that vaccines were not initially approved to prevent transmission of Covid-19, I cannot put it any clearer than that.

    So even though you know I didn't say it why on earth are you persisting on trying to argue a point that we are in agreement on?

    Are just you badgering me or trolling for fun, or what's your beef here?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,827 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I'd imagine it was the nonsense that you were again spinning into (having been thoroughly and utterly refuted on the CT forum) again from this post:

    What I have always questioned is your belief, and many others, that this reduction in severity has since 2020 always been the primary intended benefit of the vaccines, and that is what they were approved for.

    But you're probably best off following your own advice:

    The great thing is I don't really care anymore, my priorities have shifted now the pandemic has ended, and nobody is foaming at the mouth to vaccinate every man, woman and child in the country, demonising anybody who decides not to.

    Though, according to moonage, maybe your opinions were themselves caused by the needle ;)



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    The point that you are missing is you have either forgotten what you said or you now wish you hadn`t said it because it has been shown to be untrue.

    Your Post # 1124. "The point I was trying to make, citing Yale Medica (to) do so, was that vaccines were initially approved to prevent symptomatic Covid 19"

    It was not a requirement for approval, the vaccine manufacturers never claimed it would ,and the FDA also made it clear when they initially authorised the vaccine on 11th. Dec 2020 stating, "….nor is there evidence that the vaccine prevents transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from person to person"

    If you want to stick to your assertion in your post #1124 that is up to you, but it is factually incorrect



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,153 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    The way that question is asked directly after questions about administration is misleading also , as it could have been understood by some of those replying as whether they were worried about side effects after administration of the vaccine to another person also Less would have concerns about influenza vaccines because they have been administering them for years now .

    And on the uptake of the booster , healthcare staff in general received all the original primary course and boosters ...these particular boosters would have been dose 5 for most . This woukd have been after many had been infected through different waves of the disease.

    The post that said that hcws 'regret ' the vaccinations , is not borne out either by the article they quote or the data . In fact in the article linked ..

    "The authors of the research, which was published in the latest issue of the Irish Medical Journal, said the responses showed great awareness and support for vaccination among healthcare workers.

    However, they noted that “sizeable small proportions” believed the Covid-19 vaccine would make them unwell and cause serious side-effects. “These findings highlight misconceptions about -healthcare worker- vaccination, and are consistent with other published works,” they wrote."

    And as has been pointed out before no numbers are produced anymore of those in healthcare who have been infected in the months beforehand , which will of course negatively influence uptake because there has to be a wait time of 6 months after infection before a booster can be given .

    There are caveats which make reference to this in the HSPC data also quoted above by another but incompletely .

    On the subject of why people are not getting as sick with Covid now it is because we have reached an estimated seroprevalence of antibodies against the disease through infection and vaccination in this country of 99.6% up...the disease is now endemic ..and unless it mutates to a newer more virulent strain, the majority will be able to fight it off .

    Also it is unlikely unless you have been isolating and masked for the last 4 years that you would not have come into contact with it at some point and if you have a mild infection eg post Omicron , it might not have caused serious enough symptoms to warrant testing , especially in younger people many of whom do not even notice symptoms anymore .

    And this is a good thing . This is where we wanted to be in 2020 when nobody knew how this would play out .

    This post is not to downplay Covid's seriousness for those with underlying illnesses or immunocompromise who can still have serious disease and should always be considered at risk regardless of vaccination etc .

    And we still have large numbers suffering long term effects from the disease who are increasingly the forgotten people with few resources allocated to their continuing health needs .

    .https://seroepi-hpscireland.hub.arcgis.com/

    ( forgive me directing all this to you at this hour 🙈 I know you know this but the post just grew !)



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,128 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Presumably you've noticed the post you quoted says nothing about transmission.

    "vaccines were initially approved to prevent symptomatic Covid 19"

    This obviously and inarguably refers to preventing covid 19 infections in vaccinated individuals. Nothing to do with transmission.

    But you know that. Otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to invent a different statement and attribute it to me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Nobody ever claimed that the vaccine would give immunity from infection. If you undersrand anything about the efficacy rating of a vaccine you should know that for immunity the efficacy would have to be 100% for that to be the case, and no vaccine claimed to be that percentage nor did any of the Phase 3 clinical trials show that to be the case. The FDA also made it crtstal clear when they stated " nor is there evidence that the vaccine prevents the transmission of SARS-Cov-2 from person to person"

    Where you got this idea from that the vaccines were supposed to provide immunity from infection I have no idea as nobody ever claimed they would. What we do know, from Ireland alone, is that if you were unvaccinated you were 4 times more likely to require hospitalisation and 11 times more likely to end up in ICU than if you were vaccinated.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,128 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Again I didn't mention anything about 100% efficacy.

    I got the idea that the vaccines were initially approved "for the prevention of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) in individuals 16 years of age and older" from the FDA.

    That's a verbatim quote from the same FDA document you are referencing.

    If your interpretation of prevention of disease is different from mine, so be it, move on, it doesn't bother me, no idea why it appears to bother you so much.



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