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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭PolicemanFox




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,805 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    What's Leo Bolger talking about here ? (French is double Dutch to me and subtitles are crap)

    Also, (sorry for all the questions), but is there any mention in Sophie's diaries or journals about Alfie and Shirley or Leo and Sally Bolger?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,276 ✭✭✭nc6000


    Apparently Bailey dropped in some food to Alfie and Shirley as they couldn'd drive into town while the end of their drive was being "preserved" as a crime scene.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,805 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I gathered that much, but my question was to @PolicemanFox. If Bailey was allowed up to Alfie's with Leo Bolger, was it before or after he went up there with Jules? What was his excuse for his visit with Jules on Fri 27th?

    Edit;

    Just looked again and it appears Leo Bolger says it was 6 or 7 days after the murder, so 3 or 4 days after he had been up to Alfie's with Jules. What was his excuse for that visit?

    Post edited by chooseusername at


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,519 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The whole murder case of Sophie Toscan du Plantier shines a very bad light onto the French jucial system. Either it's flawed by design, or it's flawed due to influencial friends, - otherwise I can't explain it.

    So Bailey was suspected and arrested because of a statement by Marie Farrell which was later withdrawn. She called it "total bullsh…." that she's seen Bailey on that night. She also stated that she was coerced to that statement.

    And even if Bailey would have been out that night at Kealfadda Bridge it doesn't prove murder not in an Irish or a British court. Remember that Marie Farrell was out at the same time with a man at Kealfadda Bridge and nobody tried to pin the murder on her and that mysterious male compagnion.

    Sophie's son believes that there is "hundreds of evidence" ( as stated in one video interview ) pointing to Bailey? Apparently he's putting this statement of his in context to Bailey beating his partner Jules not in terms of real evidence.

    In Ireland the police may have done a bad job, but not the judge as there is no evidence at all to connect murderer to crime scene or victimg to ever convict Bailey.

    I do understand that Sophie's son is upset that the murder is still unsolved. but is the French judicial system really that flawed?

    The idea that under the French judicial system one can be sentenced to prison for murder without any evidence beyond reasonable doubt scares me. And even if evidence is withdrawn the French judicial system can still used it against somebody ? ( suppose it would have been myself being out that night at Kealfadda Bridge, or any of us….) Even worse that Sophie's son believes in that.

    I still doubt to this day that the conviction for murder of Ian Bailey would have stood up at the European court of justice.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Its a bit more nuanced than that.

    The French system incorporates a check and balance system at every stage of the investigative process.

    Our system simply allows the investigation to proceed to the point where the Gardai arec satisfied that they have a case and present the evidence file to the dept of Public Prosecutions for scrutiny.

    When the evidence was presented to the French courts, it had not been through the French investigative process and was taken at face value.



  • Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    My guess is that it was an attempt to get an early/inside track on the situation to enable him to steal a march on the other reporters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,517 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Elements of the French judicial system would have to be aware though of this distinction when dealing with extra judicial cases and evidence.

    That it should not just be presented to court like that.

    I think it was done that way because it suuited them.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 211 ✭✭jesuisjuste


    The way it works from my understanding is that they recognise that somebody did the crime, and therefore when all the evidence is gathered appropriately, and investigation is conducted properly, then whoever the 'bouquet' of evidence points towards is the highest likelihood killer. If there was no clear direction, the investigators would admit defeat and it would not be taken to trial.

    In this case it is a mashing together of the Irish investigation team, and the French judicial system. They would say that the (Irish) investigating team felt there was more than enough to go to trial, and the evidence only pointed to Bailey. The Irish team did not admit any evidence that pointed elsewhere, and furthermore claimed they were convinced it was Bailey. Therefore it went to trial and everything was taken as gospel on the French side. It's a nonsensical situation, but the French felt that the Irish justice system broke down, and therefore they should take it on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,805 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    ….



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,624 ✭✭✭thecretinhop


    Such a tragic case.

    My mind keeps coming back to this 90pc of cases are someone close either near by or husband etc.

    Alfie was having a row with her he did have cuts on his hand very weird they heard or saw nothing (in staircase audio was done to see could music drown out screams)

    Was Alfie the one having baths whoever that was it's dodgy

    They though the gross corruption of the guards pages missed etc etc steers you to protecting someone higher up.

    So many angles it's like a snow sperhe shake it you get a new picture..



  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Zola1000


    Still fine for french consider the Irish system to be broken down and yet they still take the files and happy to reach the conclusion it was bailey. Don't want any Irish investigation taking place on french soul. Was french system not broken not to in way unearth the suspicions Sophie's family had of Daniel and the life he was leading and if he even cared for Sophie. In any estimation his behaviour in not travelling to Ireland immediately after murder and not willing to be involved in investigation or welcoming a new family with his partner with months later is ultimately on par with any of chief suspects for entire case. That could be bouquet of evidence in itself if it was process adopted in Irish system.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 236 ✭✭champchamp


    I don't remember seeing an "unopened bottle of champagne" in the kitchen photos, is that correct?



  • Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭PolicemanFox


    Ah Yes, thank you! I remember seeing that now but I had forgotten. The problem is that the Gardai made statements about this which don't mention Leo - see statement from Garda John Galvin below. Garda Galvin maintains he walked Bailey and Jules to Alfies and back again. If Bailey tagged on behind Leo, why didn't the Gardai tell him to give the briquettes to Leo instead. Alfie made a statement in January 1997 to say than Bailey called him and asked if he needed anything and he told him to bring briquettes.

    So is Leo correct? Is the Garda Galvin covering his rear? I don't think we can say. Alfie did say the Bolgers called around that Sunday, so he could have been walking up with him, but the Gardai maintain they made sure nobody unauthorized entered the scene.

    It is an interesting documentary but it contains a lot of misconceptions and falsehoods. I believe those pictures of Bailey peering in the window were taken by Colman Doyle who was working with Caroline Mangez for Paris Match. This would mean they were taken in early January. In any case you can see all the vegetation was stripped at that stage so it was after the cordon was lifted. It is very misleading for the documentary to suggest this is a photo of Bailey entering the crime scene. The interview just before with Catherine Mangez says "Bailey was on the scene even before the Gardai arrived" and was talking about it being a murder before anyone else did. Mangez didn't arrive in Cork until January and she didn't even meet Bailey until 11th January so she is just repeating rumour. We know that the 999 operator gathered it was a murder from Alfie on the first call and the Schull gardai were calling for a scene of crimes detective over the radio, so the whole county knew it was a murder by 11am. Unless everyone is in a massive decades long conspiracy Bailey was not on scene before the Gardai arrived.

    It is very unfortunate the Gardai didn't interview Leo Bolger after Bailey was a suspect or if they did it was decades later. So there is nothing about Bailey in his Garda statements. In his first statement Leo was very clear that he had no personal contact with Sophie since 1994 when he fixed a window and she paid him. Yet in the documentaries and podcasts he is telling everyone he was workingon her roof in 1995 when Bailey was working for Alfie and was allegedly introduced to Sophie. So this doesn't quite fit with his earliest, and presumably most accurate statements.

    Statement of Garda John Galvin of Bantry Garda Station taken on 12/02/2002 at Bantry Garda station by D/Sgt E O’Callaghan

    I remember the 27th of December 1996. I was on duty at the scene of the murder of Sophie Du Plantier as part of a search team under the supervision of Sgt P. F. Looney. I commenced duty there at 9am and was on duty there for most of the day. I recall at some stage during the day Ian Bailey and a female who was unknown to me at the time, being accompanied by Garda Martin O’Sullivan past the cordon point and up through a field towards Alfie Lyons’ house. Garda O’Sullivan requested that I escort these people up past the rear of Sophie Du Plantier’s house to the gate of Alfie Lyons’ house. I cannot recall how long they stayed there, but I recall escorting them back down from Alfie Lyons’ house, past Sophie Du Plantier and back along the route they had taken until they reached the cordon point where Garda O’Sullivan was on duty. Ian Bailey, who was known to me at the time and the female accompanying him, did not interfere with the scene or did not approach the house other than to walk along the laneway to Alfie Lyons’ house which was along the back of the Du Plantier house. This statement is correct.

    Signed: John M Galvin Gda



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