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Vice President Kamala Harris vs Donald Trump 2024

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,546 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    Let's put one thing to bed, she was never tasked with controlling the border. End of



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭Yvonne007




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    There are lots of flaws that could be highlighted in everyone, BUT some flaws are utterly disqualifying, making attempts at "both sides-ing" utterly disingenuous.

    A conversation about Simon Harris vs. Mary-Lou McDonald for example is one based on policies and leadership abilities and it would be normal to compare strengths and weaknesses and debate from there.

    A conversation about Strengths and weaknesses or Policy in relation to Trump vs. literally any other person, is instantly null and void because Trump is a Rapist and a Convicted Fraud - That's it , that's the ball game right there.

    It simply does not matter whether Kamala Harris might be weak on X or Y issue or whether she's a good negotiator or whatever.

    Trump is a RAPIST and a convicted Felon so that is the end of all conversation on the relative merits of the candidates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭Yvonne007


    I’ve asked her, the VP, today — because she’s the most qualified person to do it — to lead our efforts with Mexico and the Northern Triangle and the countries that help — are going to need help in stemming the movement of so many folks, stemming the migration to our southern border.

    And, you know, back when I was Vice President, I got a similar assignment, but one of the things we did was we made sure that we got a bipartisan agreement with Democrats and Republicans to provide over $700 million to the countries in the Northern Triangle to determine the best way to keep people from coming is keep them from wanting to leave.

    And the reason why so many people were leaving, we learned, was that not only gang violence and trafficking and cartels, but natural disasters, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes.  And so it’s not like someone sits around a hand-hewnen [sic] — hand-hewn table somewhere in Guatemala and says, “I’ve got a great idea:  Let’s sell everything we have, give the money to a coyote, have him take our kids or us to the border of America, take us across, leave us in the desert.  We don’t speak the language.  Won’t that be fun?”

    One of the ways we learned is that if you deal with the problems in country, it benefits everyone.  It benefits us, it benefits the people, and it grows the economies there.

    Unfortunately, the last administration eliminated that funding — did not engage in it, did not use it — even though there was over $700 million to help get this done.  We’re reinstituting that program.  And there are — as I said, there are many factors as to why people leave in the first place. 

    But this is — this is the — the source of one of the reasons why we’ve had such a — before we took office, in the midst of the last administration’s somewhat draconian policies of separating children from their parents, et cetera, what happened was that we — we found that there were a serious spike in the number of people heading to the southern border, even in the midst of that.  And as — as Alejandro can tell you, is that was because there were serious natural disasters that occurred in those countries.  They were coming north, and we did nothing to do any — much about it. 

    So this new surge we’re dealing with now started with the last administration, but it’s our responsibility to deal with it humanely and to — and to stop what’s happening.

    And so, this increase has been consequential, but the Vice President has agreed — among the multiple other things that I have her leading — and I appreciate it — agreed to lead our diplomatic effort and work with those nations to accept re- — the returnees, and enhance migration enforcement at their borders — at their borders.

    We’re already talking with Mexico about that; she’s already done that.  We’re going to be dealing with a full team now that we have to be able to deal with the problem here at home, but also to deal with it now in terms of in country. 

    And I can think of nobody who — who is better qualified to do this than a former — this is a woman who ran the second-largest attorney general’s office in America — after the U.S. — after the United States Attorney General — in the state of California, and has done a great deal upholding human rights, but also fighting organized crime in the process. 

    So it’s not her full responsibility and job, but she’s leading the effort because I think the best thing to do is to put someone who, when he or she speaks, they don’t have to wonder about is that where the President is.  When she speaks, she speaks for me.  Doesn’t have to check with me.  She knows what she’s doing, and I hope we can move this along. 

    But — so, Madam Vice President, thank you.  I gave you a tough job, and you’re smiling, but there’s no one better capable of trying to organize this for us.

    THE VICE PRESIDENT:  Well, thank you, Mr. President and for having the confidence in me.  And there’s no question that this is a challenging situation.  As the President has said, there are many factors that lead precedent to leave these countries.  And while we are clear that people should not come to the border now, we also understand that we will enforce the law and that we also — because we can chew gum and walk at the same time — must address the root causes that — that cause people to make the trek, as the President has described, to come here. 

    And I look forward to engaging in diplomacy with government, with private sector, with civil society, and — and the leaders of each in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras to strengthen democracy and the rule of law, and ensure shared prosperity in the region. 

    We will collaborate with Mexico and other countries throughout the Western hemisphere.  And as part of this effort, we expect that we will have collaborative relationships to accomplish the goals the President has and that we share. 

    I also look forward to working with members of the Congress who, I think, share our perspective on the need to address root causes for the migration that we’ve been seeing.  And needless to say, the work will not be easy, but it is important work.  It is work that we demand — and the people of our countries, I believe, need — to help stem the tide that we have seen. 

    So thank you, Mr. President, for your confidence.  Thank you.

    THE PRESIDENT:  Well, thank you for willing to do it.  Now we’re going to get down to business here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,607 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Yes, and a discussion it is reasonable to point out what your posts are saying and what your posts do not say.

    "Trump is a convicted felon/rapist, has absolutely no filter and is an egomaniac. This has been said multiple times and really needs no repeating, which is why I don't bother."

    It really does, when you have multiple posters on the forum contesting those points.
    And when you present the flaws you perceive Harris has, and which you are very free with your comments on… without any balance. As if what really matters is those flaws. That is how your posts come across when it is just constant negativity of Harris and no mention of Trump, which was the case for a very long time with your posts.
    An absolute over focus on these 'flaws' of Harris while ignoring that the other candidate is far worse.
    How many posts has it taken for you to acknowledge Trump's flaws?

    You will also find if you look back, many many posters challenging you on the specific points you raised against Harris.
    Did you engage with them or did you just continue to repeat the flaws regardless of what the other posters said?

    "Anyone with a brain…"
    Not really a sign of someone willing to discuss points when you frame them in such a prejudicial manner is it.
    So if someone disagrees with you, they don't have a brain?

    In a two horse race, who would you vote for?
    No cop out answers about them both being 'terrible' candidates, as if your perceived flaws of Harris are in any way of the same scale comparable to Trumps. That is false both sides equivalence.

    If you don't answer, we can draw the reasonable conclusion it is Trump.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    He is a terrible candidate. If I was pushed to say anything positive, I would say the world seemed to be a safer place while he was in charge. This fact I wouldn't attribute to his ability or his leadership, it was more likely due to happenstance.

    There is an overwhelmingly large amount of negatives attributed to trump on this discussion. The majority of them are valid. I see no sense in repeating them. But we should also be able to discuss the shortcomings of Harris too without being unfairly labelled as a Trump supporter.

    Well done for figuring out why, all by yourself. There is nothing very positive about a Trump presidency.

    The world "seemed" like a safer place as the leader of America (The land of the free!), cosied up to dictators like Putin (a private meeting between the Russian and US President, with no notes taken and only Putin, Trump and a Russian translator in the room?) or Kim Jung Un, (who wants Trump to win again, and there's a very good article here, explaining why)?

    He set in motion the current Middle East issue by moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem, thus empowering Israel even more. Then there was his ridiculous capitulation to the Taliban.

    It may have appeared to be "safer" in your bubble, but trust me, it was the foundation of some pretty bad things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭Yvonne007


    Christ almighty. The attempt to class criticism of a candidate for the presidental election as "both sides-ing" is moronic. The thread needs a title change to "Trump is really really bad, let's all root for Biden Kamala".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭Yvonne007


    I'll not engage further with you because you are openly being hostile, patronising and frankly baiting me into a response to see me get reprimanded .



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,049 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Not at all and you know this, I can criticise FF, it does not mean I support SF. This said, from a voting view in the US system which is markedly different to ours, while you can criticise, you also are either 100% behind a candidate for election or you are not voting. This does not mean you agree with them 100% but you do support them either 100% or 0% in regards being president.

    At this point in time, I can't think of any criticisms of Harris but that does not mean I think she doesn't have things that can be criticised. Trump on the other hand, I don't even have to think, there is very little positive to be said based on his record. I think she has improved dramatically moving from the legalistic aggression she used against Biden years ago to a more personable person. This is also odd to me though as my experience in the US is that all over the aggressive tend to garner more respect, or at least that's how it looked to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭Yvonne007


    Thats a fair take.

    That's the kind of discourse that allows discussion and thank you for that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Absolutely true.
    Her actual mandate was:

    “to focus on examining and improving the underlying conditions in the Northern Triangle of Central America—El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras—which has been racked by decades of poverty, war, chronic violence, and political instability“

    However, like all complicated things that need to be made simple for simpletons, border Zsar was a label that stuck and not just by Republicans either - it was a clever move by Biden in fairness and an impossible task that wouldn’t see any tangible results for years, maybe decades.

    It’s definitely going to be a focus of Trump in the upcoming debate - no question of it- unfair? Ah totally but this is a political battle so alls fair😀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,607 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You may think Harris has flaws… you may think she will make a poor President, but it will be within the normal range of US Presidents.
    We discuss what we perceive as flaws or mis-steps in tactics or strategy, from the perspective of how it will go down with voters.

    Trump on the other hand, is simply not a fit and proper person to be President. He should be in jail for his previous crimes never mind the ones he has lined up if elected. A rapist, a racist, a fascist, a felon, who tried to steal the last election and incited a mob to storm the Capitol.

    But to present such flaws in Harris and being in any way comparable to the disqualifications against Trump is textbook 'both sides'.
    It is going to extreme lengths to find something negative to say while overlooking the elephant in the room.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    So you don't actually want to discuss, I mean that's a given. You don't appear to want to engage with anyone who asks you who would you like to see win in November, for a start. I mean, if you can't be honest with that, there literally is no point discussing anything with you.

    It appears you want people that just agree with you…. What's the word again…?

    No need to reply, lest you feel like I'm "baiting you".

    One day we'll have a poster who genuinely supports Trump, and Project 2025 and is open and honest about it. The question would be though, would they be free enough here to defend their policies? Defending ending homosexual marriages would probably break the charter here as I'm sure it would drift into hate speech and homophobia. Defending an abortion ban and promoting enforced motherhood probably isn't against the charter or the rules though. Defending the elimination of the Dept of Education and the Dept of the Environment would be a woozy debate. Defending the privatisation of the National Weather Service though… That would have to be difficult.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,142 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Very few people, if anyone, have claimed that the election is over, so I'm not sure why you're making this point. Most people are saying it will be close.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,117 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Migrant crossings from the Northern Triangle of countries are down so presumably you can now take that in good faith and chalk that up as a win for her.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Absolutely. And if I do say, "I'm sure she'll win/ When she wins" it's in the same vein as Trumpers talking about what they'll do when they win.

    No one knows. It's very much a coin toss. I really hope she doesn't fumble at the debate, cos that could be a severe blow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 733 ✭✭✭scottser


    All very well, but the US election is a binary choice. For American voters, they have to vote for Harris to keep Trump out despite and in full knowledge of her flaws. There is a dynamic with American voters whereby Republicans will always vote Republican no matter who the candidate is. The danger then, is that a low-voter turnout by those who would or might vote Democrat will benefit Trump. It's voter apathy more than anything that will hand the presidency to the rapist. Texas right now is shaving about a million voters off the register, from a demographic that would tend to vote Democrat. We'll see more of this in the coming weeks.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    The point being made is that in a two horse race when one of the Candidates is a Treasonous Rapist Felon , debating the comparative Strengths and weaknesses of the other candidate is an utterly moot point.

    If the GOP had picked Nicky Haley as their candidate whilst she's a Tea Party founder and has policy viewpoints I find abhorrent , a debate and discussion about the two candidates is reasonable because she isn't a criminal like Trump is.

    Is Kamala Harris perfect ? - No , but I don't care , she's not a Treasonous Rapist Fraud.

    Is her policy platform perfect? - No , but I don't care , she's not a Treasonous Rapist Fraud.

    Will she be excellent at dealing with people like Putin etc. ? - Not sure , but I don't care , she's not a Treasonous Rapist Fraud.

    Put it this way - If you are starving hungry and the only two food choices are a maggot infested dog turd or a cheese and pickle sandwich , complaining that no one seems to want to talk about the fact that you aren't a big fan of pickles all seems a bit pointless doesn't it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    I highlighted a few pages ago some poll statistics - one of them was in the area of country security, Trump currently leads Harris on this issue ie- that people would feel more “secure” in America if Trump was president.

    It will be interesting to see how Harris attempts to create the feeling of “security” within the voter ship population, especially the undecided. Margaret Thatcher would have nailed that aspect every time no matter the opponent. What will Harris style be I wonder to convince the voters she has their back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭Lewis_Benson




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Yes and also….on the Republican side, I think the silent Trump voter is being replaced by the silent “non-Trump voter - ie predictions of Trumps lead throughout the Republican nomination process were way over what they turned out to be when votes were counted - sometimes up to 30% less.

    Does this mean some Republicans will abstain from voting Trump on the day and watch re-runs of Home Alone instead? Let’s see.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,546 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    Indeed. However when posters like @Yvonne007 saying that she failed at her job on the border is disingenuous at best



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭Yvonne007




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,119 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    the only people who appointed her “border czar” are personalities and trolls on the right.

    And, the border is doing great:

    https://www.mediaite.com/tv/foxs-bill-melugin-concedes-border-crossings-have-dropped-significantly-since-bidens-executive-order/

    It would be doing even better if Republicans decided 6 months ago they wanted to kill a bipartisan border bill so they’d hope to have something to run on. They’d have nothing to hope to run on right now had the bill passed. It’s disingenuous.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4433785-trump-says-blame-it-on-me-border-bill-fails/amp/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Imagine the sh*t show that would happen if he lost by a tremendous amount, like over 16%. No way MAGA heads will take it lying down if Trump does worse than the polling.

    I can't figure out would a close win, or a huge win be better? Either way, I imagine sh*t will hit the fan again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,119 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Put it this way - If you are starving hungry and the only two food choices are a maggot infested dog turd or a cheese and pickle sandwich , complaining that no one seems to want to talk about the fact that you aren't a big fan of pickles all seems a bit pointless doesn't it?

    Quote of the Week.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭Yvonne007


    apart from when the left leaning news outlets called her that too?

    And if you consider the border to be doing great, you are lying to yourself.

    This type of gaslighting is dishonest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,119 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,119 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    no this is gaslighting and you’ve ignored the fact the border crossings are down. She was never appointed a Czar. Keep digging your hole.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    The scale of the win doesn't really matter in terms of vote share . She just needs to win by several States in the Electoral college. The more States that have to be flipped to change the result the better as if they can change result by overturning one State it will be a nightmare.



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