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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,206 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He has spent longer periods in jail under contempt of court then he ever realistically would under a fixed term offence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,377 ✭✭✭mountain


    Unfortunately there is only one acceptable solution to this from Enoch's side,

    That is reinstatement in his position at the school, whether the school at any stage could be persuaded/forced to take him back is extremely unlike.
    Which means he is going to become trapped in a circle of his own making,

    Prison, school holidays, prison and so on



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    "child safety protections absolutely should be applied where there is risk to children"

    No this is not correct.

    Child safety protections must be applied where children are or may be present regardless of any risk assessment.

    The safety of the children at the school HAS been compromised by the very fact that a person is on the premises without authorisation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭BK5


    Has anyone else ever had any experience of a teacher being sacked before? Is it just Enoch being a special case or is it nigh on impossible to sack a teacher in this day and age?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Set aside the trespass - that's just the manifestation of the Contempt of Court.

    Legally , it's the refusal to purge the contempt and obey the court order that is the challenge.

    As I understand it , being held in contempt potentially indefinitely is the only available sanction - That needs to change.

    If someone is held in contempt , send them to jail and then once an agreed time has past (1 week , 1 month , whatever), bring them back to court and give them choice - Purge the contempt or be charged and convicted of "new offence dealing with long term contempt" and being given a jail sentence of X months/years.

    When that sentence is complete , they go before the Judge again and they are presented with that same choice - Accept the court order or off to jail for a fixed term.

    Rinse and repeat with all the extras for repeat offenders etc.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    How can you assume he is vetted after being in prison for a period of time, and by the way have you any children in secondary school, school is hard enough for students without having to face this Burke circus in school.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    What exactly do you mean by the “highest court in Europe” ? ECJ ? ECHR ? Some other august body ?

    It’s very difficult to see the Irish courts granting him leave to go anywhere near the ECJ with this, and his self inflicted imprisonment for civil contempt would be most unlikely to pass the ECHR filtration process never mind getting anywhere near the Chamber let alone the Grand Chamber.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,385 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    As well as full reintatement, he also wants that the school to deny all non-binary and trans pupils, now and in the future, their right to self-identify and to be called by a name and pronouns of their choosing - or to allow him to deny the students' rights because of his religious beliefs.

    Something the school can't do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,494 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Again it isn't my opinion, The Law Reform Commission have written extensively about our archaic contempt laws and how they may be unconstitutional.

    But make no mistake this lunatic will do anything to please his Mammy. Fast forward 10 years when he has spent 3000 days in prison without trial, do you think the higher courts will not have to test the case then?

    He would be well within his rights.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    You can’t identify what court you are referring to, and what his route to get there is ? With respect it sounds like you are waffling.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,945 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    He has had his day in court already. You can't be in contempt of court without having a court case so I can't see how "prison without trial" fits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,494 ✭✭✭✭Boggles




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,494 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Well no, he clearly hasn't had a trial because he hasn't been charged with a criminal offence.

    Jailing someone for contempt of court cannot be punitive.

    It's the reason he keeps getting let out without having purged his contempt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,833 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    Hadn’t heard that. Is there a link or something?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Whether I have children in secondary school ( I don’t by the way) is not relevant here, I’m not sure why you would think it is.

    The only thing I am assuming is that he was vetted by Gardai before he commenced employment, have you some information which confirms that the Gardai have informed WH that his status has changed? I’d like to know what you are basing that on, considering the Gardai have indicated they consider this a civil matter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,385 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    You hadn't heard that Enoch Burke is anti-transgender? 😶



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    This is who contempt is dealt with not just in Ireland but in most common law jurisdictions. The charge is not trivial it is a fundamental challenge to the democratic processes in the country. And if that means he spends the next 40 years going in and out of jail, that is exactly what needs to be done. No one, but no one gets to pick and choose which laws the will comply with.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,494 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    The problem is though and I am assuming it is the route they want to go down, is they will challenge the constitutionality of the law.

    And according to many in the legal profession over the years, including judges and Supreme Judges they may actually win.

    Which they will frame in their batshít way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,833 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    now now. No need to be disingenuous.

    he also wants that the school to deny all non-binary and trans pupils, now and in the future, their right to self-identify and to be called by a name and pronouns of their choosing 

    That’s what you said. I hadn’t heard that. And I’d like a link to where he is saying that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,385 ✭✭✭Ezeoul


    I'm not being disingenuous. But maybe you are?

    It is the basis of his whole dispute with the School and the then Principal that he shouldn't have recognise a non-binary / trans student's rights and call them by their preferred name or pronouns, as he claims it goes against his religious beliefs.

    It was that dispute that led to his behaviour at a public school event, which led to his suspension and then dismissal.

    Do you think if he (by some miracle) was reinstated, he will have changed his position on that, or that he will ever change his position on that?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,833 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    and you cannot know for certain that it wasn’t some personal issue with this student. It is common knowledge that this student is not the first transgender student in WHS.

    Burke is a big enough pantomime bad guy without adding to it. He’s a laughing stock amongst right minded people, but we don’t know why he has an issue with this particular students transgenderism. There’s no proof that he is demanding that the school never ever recognises a transgender student in the future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭Jakey Rolling


    Vetting normally has to be renewed every 3 years. As he doesn't have any criminal convictions then his vetting status is likely unchanged.

    100412.2526@compuserve.com



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,952 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Have you read up on the publicized history of the events at WHS between Burke and the former Principal, on how not alone was the request from the transgender former pupil to be addressed by use of pronouns passed to Burke by the principal, along with other members of the school staff but it seems there was also an exchange of emails between Burke and the principal on the issue, plus the approach he made to the principal at the school dinner event where he addressed her directly on the issue in front of the guests there, after which he had a heated discussion with one of the guests about the way he used the dinner event to raise the issue.

    As far as I know. this was given in evidence at one or more of the high court hearings toward the start of the court becoming involved with Burke. I can be corrected on one point of the school dinner event if I'm wrong and that is that Burke was NOT one of those invited-to or attending the dinner. It seems he basically gate-crashed the dinner event to have it out with her there about his refusal to comply with the school management boards decision to recognize and agree with the transgender pupils request to be addressed by the pronouns they/them.

    I had heard mention that there was another transgender student at the school prior to the row about the student at the heart of the row between Burke, the school and the courts. That does raise the question as to why there was no difference of opinion between Burke and the school about that transgender pupil, why was he so accepting of one and not the other given he's he's made the current situation revolve around his refusal to accept transgenderism across the board.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,385 ✭✭✭Ezeoul




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,357 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Two years and counting in jail is a severe penalty. (don't know why this is not appearing in the quote, Vanilla strikes again)

    It's not a penalty. He has not been convicted or sentenced in relation to this. The only reason he was imprisoned was his refusal to purge his contempt of court. He should not have been let out until he did this. It was entirely obvious what would happen.

    A school is not remotely comparable to a department store and some creep hanging around and entering a school when they have no business being there is not remotely comparable to an industrial dispute.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,357 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    That last sentence is the whole problem right there.

    It should be regarded as a matter of criminal trespass and dealt with under the criminal law. We need to change the law to give greater protection to schools. Forcing WHS to continually go to court to get orders which will be ignored is a farce and unjust.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Podge addressed your point earlier.

    Read my post again, I wasn’t comparing his behaviour to department store protestors, I was saying that if legislation was introduced to punish people who protest outside their place of work, then other, less contentious protestors may suffer unintended consequences as a result. Just think, if such a law was enacted and you protested outside your workplace for some reason, you, Enoch Burke and the sex offender you mentioned earlier could all be sharing a cell.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Can someone be charged with criminal trespass for standing in a public area like a road or footpath?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭seanin4711


    good on him!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭afatbollix


    He is standing inside the school though. It would be grand if he was outside the school gates on the side of the road but hes not hes walking through the school and standing outside windows looking in.



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