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Vice President Kamala Harris vs Donald Trump 2024

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,546 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    Yeah, saw him in the Olympia about 20 years ago and made a promise to myself that I wouldn't again unfortunately



  • Registered Users Posts: 730 ✭✭✭scottser


    Again, Ireland is a full democracy, 7th best in the world in fact. America is way off - 29th, a flawed democracy. Your spoiled vote here does not mean the same as a spoiled vote in the US. You should at least try to acknowledge that fact.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,614 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Where I disagree is on the idea that the criticisms are moot.

    For example, by far the area of strongest opposition to Harris from the US left I've seen is on Gaza. The view there (that I wholeheartedly agree with) is that Harris and the Dems are actively supporting an ongoing genocide and humanitarian catastrophe. That's a grave and urgent enough situation that it can hardly be rendered a moot criticism just because Trump will be worse. It's not a minor policy disagreement that can be pushed to the side this time around. Change and action needs to be fought for on every front, not delayed. I don't think it's morally justifiable to write it off as insignificant, even while fearing and understanding how much worse Trump would be.

    Yet it's also where I've certainly seen the perfectly reasonable - indeed, necessary - criticisms and beliefs that need to be voiced and advocated for pushed aside by many Harris liberal loyalists because they're inconvenient. Adam Johnson articulates this better than I can in his Nation article on the DNC:

    The whiplash from the beige, off-site conference room in a large, mostly empty convention center talking to doctors pleading for some kind of change in policy to the fever-pitched excitement on the packed convention floor was sobering. The contrast was morally upsetting to anyone who believes in the straight line between the White House and the nonstop images of dead children. But most don’t. And it’s unclear how to make that connection for millions who simply don’t want to see what is obvious.

    Everyone says the right things, and feels bad and sad, but almost no one I spoke to—except the protesters outside, the Gaza healthcare workers, and the uncommitted delegates inside—seemed to be willing to actually risk anything.

    And so the bombs continue, and the party goes on. Gaza is removed from our minds and the field of vision of those attending the big celebration. And everyone—or at least those not on the wrong end of American weapons—gets to feel “joy” again.




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,653 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    The narrative that some on this thread are trying to push that no criticism of Harris is allowed is absolute nonsense. People have criticised Harris plenty of times, particularly over Palestine.

    The issue is that people mention a minor thing that Harris said that may not be true while ignoring the fact that Trump lies every time he opens his mouth. They criticise her over Israel while ignoring the fact that Trump wants them to ‘finish the job’. They accuse her of not having proven herself to be Presidential while ignoring the fact that Trump has proven conclusively that he isn’t.

    In a two horse race all that matters is who is the better of the two candidates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    So this is interesting - yes behind a paywall but assume most know what jiggery pokery to use - it’s all about Trumps strategy or lack thereof so far.
    In a poll I posted yesterday I think, Democrats were much happier with how their party was doing right now - something like 80% I think, than Republicans at i think 71% - - either way it was nearly a 10% difference -there’s certainly disquiet inside the Rep camp as can be seen from the quote below. I wonder how many “Ant Popes” there are right now? In essence the calls for inside the party are “for a disciplined message” from Trump , mount effective attacks on Harris and stop embracing fringe politicians like RFK jn.

    So we can be sure that’s 3 things Trump won’t do in the coming months 😀


    “Art Pope, the North Carolina retail baron, said he was unhappy with Trump’s plan to impose up to 20 per cent tariffs on imports. “Right now I am exercising my right to a secret ballot, and probably will not decide on how I will vote until I vote on election day,” he said.”


    https://www.ft.com/content/f7cff7ad-f264-496e-b129-69ff93bea382



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭Yvonne007


    This is an irish message board where we are discussing the American presidential election, and I've been attacked for not supporting Kamala and being told my lack of support for a candidate is essentially a vote for Donald Trump. Thats not true.

    There is no discussion here. It's absurd.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,374 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Harris' team (or herself) is idiotic in not doing an interview before this evenings scheduled sit down, does that make me a trump supporter

    I fail to see how it is idiotic. Could you explain why?

    It certainly hasn't harmed her.

    Lets be clear here, she will be doing a grown interview with a grown up reporter and not a conservative wing nut nodding like a dog at every piece of scutter flying out of her mouth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,546 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    You've been attacked for being completely and utterly disingenuous in your postings, your attacks on Harris are based off a lie that you've repeatedly tried to claim, and yet repeatedly disproven.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭amandstu


    You don't seem to think that "practically anybody but Trump" is wise counsel to anyone who is eligible to vote in the American election.Is that your position?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,546 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    It would seem an easy win to lay out your policies in an interview, especially when your opponent hasn't laid out any



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,605 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You were essentially saying that if you were an American voter, you were ok with being represented by a rapist and a felon as a President. You acknowledged Trump as such in one of your posts.

    In that situation, you couldn't bring yourself to support Harris. And that is an advantage to Trump, it is one less vote against him.

    You couldn't bring yourself to oppose that outcome. Implicitly, you were ok with that outcome.

    Yes, we're discussing the American presidential election and it is entirely reasonable to criticise such a position.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,454 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Well, you can disagree if you wish. But the essential thrust is this. When the alternative to Option A is much, much, worse, then, yes, your difficulties with Option A become moot. One can beat the Democrats all they wish over Gaza, but just across the table is a far more egregious position that will, essentially, let Netanyahu and his band of yooyas do what they want.

    People such as yourself and myself will, undoubtedly have problems with the Democrats' approach to the Middle East and it's right to be critical of them. Both parties are beholden to a "US policy" with regards to Israel that allow them to close their eyes to utterly abhorrent behaviour on behalf of their ally in the region. That, very much, has to change and probably won't any time soon. I think, however, that there's much more of a chance in the Democrats changing tack than there is amongst this MAGA crew, even if it's only slightly.

    However, everything we have heard says that the Republicans (especially under the custodianship of Trump and his MAGA goons) would be worse by a much greater degree and that's not something that can be hand waved away because of the problems with the Democrats attitudes to Gaza.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,374 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Well no. Again, she will be doing an interview with an actual journalist who will ask actual questions, the worse thing to do would be rush into an interview with a broad outline of policies and then to come up short when that policy is dug into.

    She was only official nominated a couple of weeks ago. Policies particularly economic ones need to be costed and secured.

    Her team have been pretty flawless in the past 40 odd days, I'd suggest they know what they are doing.

    We have one candidate listening to their team and the other who refuses to.

    That is what is idiotic IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Off you go and find a few Palestinian's and tell them all they’re Trump supporters for not voting for Harris- I’m sure they’ll craic up with glee and see the funny side of it

    Now, with the 2024 presidential election less than three months away, Hasan and other Palestinian Americans are done trying to blend in. She’s speaking out about how Wisconsin residents around her and politicians don’t understand what she calls a “genocide” happening to her community in Gaza. She feels more alienated than ever with no major party earning her vote.

    https://pbswisconsin.org/news-item/palestinian-americans-in-wisconsin-have-felt-isolated-from-politics-and-the-2024-election-has-made-it-worse/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,793 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Forget Donald , forget he ever was born for a few moments,

    On Kamala & her own campaign in 2020, Why did it fall apart ? Is she better now than she was then ? Why was she polled as the worst vice president to date ? or is it simply circumstance has fallen in her favour , Would she have won a primary if Biden gave longer per warning about stepping down ?

    Why do you think she will make a good president ? What do you think will make her good president,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,605 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Implicitly, that is what they are doing. No ifs, no buts, no maybes.
    It is clear Trump would be worse on every metric for Palestinians.

    As for "craic up with glee and see the funny side of it" - read that line back to yourself. I don't know where that came from.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,614 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    "There's much more of a chance in the Democrats changing tack than there is amongst this MAGA crew"

    That I certainly agree with you on, and it's why I'm supportive of those fighting tooth-and-nail for that change to happen - as difficult as that fight will be. The pressure can't let up, and I very much doubt any of the 'uncommitted' activists fail to recognise a second Trump term would be more disastrous again. But, within the existing political structures, they have to fight for what's right within the limits of the two-party US electoral system - and that means not letting the Dems off the hook for what they've allowed happen to the Palestinian people, while doing everything they can to move the needle with Harris. After all, polls do consistently show Dem voters being pretty unhappy with the US stance on the war currently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭amandstu


    Palestinian Americans are as well able to piss on their fellow Americans as Trump voters or Kamala abstainers.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,846 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Exactly - I have made this point myself before.

    US Policy regarding Israel is awful and always has been so trying to use it as a determining factor in the upcoming Election doesn't make a lot of sense although as you rightly point out , the Democrats are likely to be somewhat less awful than the GOP.

    There's also more chance of shifting the Democrats position over the GOP so again the choice, whilst unpleasant seems fairly straightforward.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    I haven’t a clue what that means- except you’ve excluded Democrats- so I assume you believe Democrats don’t piss on their fellow Americans - interesting.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭amandstu


    Vote for Trump = piss on the electoral process (ie fellow Americans).

    So does abstaining.

    If Dems did that the same would apply.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,846 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Ask the same question about Biden when you compare his 2008 campaign where he crashed and burned early doors in the Primaries to when he was elected in 2016??

    Timing is EVERYTHING in US politics , there's a huge element of "capturing the zeitgeist" involved - Sometimes the time is right , sometimes it isn't.

    Right now , the timing appears to be good for Harris.

    As far as whether she'll be a good President?

    If elected I expect her to be a competent politician who treats the office the way it should be treated, she'll have wins and losses as most do but at the end of a future hypothetical term in office at worst she will go down as an "OK" President.

    Her opponent is already clearly defined as the worst ever to hold the office and in a second term he would reenforce that rating a hundred fold.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭Sigma101




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,605 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I don't think what happened in 2020 has any real relevance. Biden did awful in 2008 and came back and won in 2020, and then won a general election.
    Plenty of strong candidates who would make a decent stab at President don't win primaries.
    It's a different situation trying to stand out in a crowded field, versus a general election. Especially a crowded field of quality candidates who appeal to similar parts of your base.
    I think she would have won the primary, repeatedly so on this thread. Whenever a VP had stood in a Democratic primary, they have won. I don't see any of the other candidates being of such clear quality they'd overcome her head start as VP, with the profile that gives with donors and the base. The other candidates mentioned are decent candidates, but not on another level to Harris. Maybe Whitmer but she seemed reluctant to run.

    I think given the short media cycles, this has worked out well for the Democrats, avoiding a fractious, expensive primary. Harris coming onto the scene at this point, general voters sit up and take notice, probably more notice than they would to the primaries.

    At this stage of the game, I haven't seen anything to suggest she wouldn't make a good \ capable President.
    The indications are she is a centrist Democrat, maybe a little more to the left than Biden but nothing to frighten the horses or the markets.
    It is not just about her, it is about her administration.
    Nothing of major difference to Clinton, Obama, Biden at an administration level.

    Define a 'good' President?
    She may not 'inspire' people the way that Clinton or Obama did but you don't get candidates like that all the time.
    I think she would be a responsible President, actually intent on trying to improve things on the ground for Americans.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭amandstu


    Nothing personal but I often don't bother reading links. Perhaps you want to summarise the main points?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Apparently they’re still going to be “Trump supporters” or at least Democracy piss artists according to more than a few posters here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭amandstu


    "

    Apparently they’re still going to be “Trump supporters” "

    Indeed .You catch on quick.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,711 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    You think Trump picked Vance because of his stellar intelligent or his achievements?

    The problem with every attack from Trump side is that Trump has the the sane or worse.

    Trump picked Pence because is was religious. At least Biden was looking to break down barriers.

    VPs are selected based on what they can add in terms of votes. Biden was selected by Obama because he was white and older. As they were potential issues for Obama. Some potential VP picks this year were excluded because of where they were based (California would give no benefit to Harris). It's politics.

    But Harris was clearly ready for the role of VP. So Biden didn't pick someone unqualified based on their gender or race.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Ah right bang on time - so this democracy pissing thing- can you please explain to me why someone who votes for someone other than Harris or Trump and exercises their DEMOCRATIC RIGHT to do so - is pissing on democracy? No less a Trump supporter
    In your own time



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