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Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,744 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    All-Island Strategic Rail Review was published today by the DoT

    Link is here: https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/cc8fc-all-island-strategic-rail-review/

    Still reading it, some good stuff in it, like new track, some needed but difficult stuff in it like Quad tracking and some seriously pie in the sky type stuff like HSR and net 0 carbon emission stuff that, while admirable is going to be near impossible to achieve.

    Edit:
    The costs are on page 96
    To implement the whole thing will cost between €40B and €60B

    Seems expensive but when you think the Metro "could" cost €21B, it seems reasonably good value.

    Post edited by Beta Ray Bill on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,672 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    In terms of capital projects on the national rail network, is this the current status?

    Greater Dublin Area (GDA)

    new DART fleet: framework order signed for 750 vehicles in Dec 2021, of which 185 ordered so far

    DART+ west: design done, RO submitted to ABP in July 2022, permission rec'd from ABP in July 2024

    DART+ southwest: designed, RO submitted to ABP in March 2023

    DART+ north: designed, RO submitted to ABP in July 2024

    DART+ south: design and public consultation in 2024

    Am I missing anything in Dublin?

    Cork city area

    Three projects are actually under construction? Thanks to EU funds.

    (1) extra platform(s) at Kent station = construction underway

    (2) 10km double-tracking from Glouthaune to Midleton: RO granted by ABP in Nov 2023 - has construction started?

    (3) re-signalling to ECTS = construction is underway since Jan 2024

    Cork area: new stations, electrification = all at early design stage

    Around Limerick

    Line to Foynes - re-construction is well underway

    LJ to Limerick re-doubling: I'm unsure as to its status

    New station at Moyross = proposed design published

    New station in suburbs of Limerick: I'm unsure about this? Ballysimon?

    Other projects

    Elimination of LC in north county Cork: huge delays with ABP

    Oranmore passing loop 1km and new platform: still no planning application for such a simple project

    Ceannt station re-development: construction started in early 2024

    Am I missing anything?

    No moves on the Navan line?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 327 ✭✭Tiernster7


    Ballysimon location is with a company for consultation

    Increasing Limerick Ennis line capacity is with a company for cosultation, same with Limerick -Limerick junction.

    Limerick -Limerick Junction was in at the same time as Moyross so thats the one I would expect a next step on next.

    Moyross should go to planning in Autumn



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,672 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    You'd think the IE engineers should know how to improve the railway - that is their job, isn't it?

    Why the need for external consultants?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,413 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Because they don't have enough for the scale of works underway/pipelined.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    If the ambition is to always have a pipeline of smaller projects underway, why aren't they developing that capability?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,413 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I believe they are, but to get stuff going at pace they would still have needed to outsource some



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,672 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I could tell them that the solution to more capacity is adding passing loops, and/or re-doubling lines.

    There you go.

    For many stretches of intercity lines, here is the solution: re-double the line, eliminate all LC, add ETCS, max speed 200kph, passive or active provision for electrification.

    Galway line: apply above from Portarlington to Athlone and Athenry to Galway

    Cork line: apply above to whole line

    Limerick: apply above to LJ to Limerick station

    Waterford: apply above as far as Kilkenny

    Belfast: whole line



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭Christy Browne


    New station well under construction in Waterford as part of the North Quays project.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 327 ✭✭Tiernster7


    I think the value add should be closer to an actual plan then telling IE to add a passing loop in Sixmilebridge (as well as extending the existing platform). As per Moyross (with same company) location and station plan was the outcome.

    The money spent on planning a development does seem excessive , proof of whether it is or not can be seen in the time it takes to ultimately be delivered.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,672 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Cork projects

    https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2024/0524/1450928-rail-stations-cork/

    This project represents an investment of €23 million. A contract for the construction work was awarded in March. Iarnród Éireann says work is on target to be completed by the end of the year.

    The second project involves an investment of €180 million in a signalling and communications upgrade to cater for the frequency and capacity increases in the Cork commuter network.

    Civil works associated with this project started in February. Iarnród Éireann said it expects this work to be completed by 2026.

    The third project consists of upgrading the Glounthaune to Midleton line to create a twin track.

    Iarnród Éireann said it expects a contract for this work to be awarded next month, and the project is expected to be completed by the end of 2026. The value of the contract is around €90m.

    My question is about the cost of the signalling project, which at 180m is much higher than I expected, and double the 90m of the 10km of double-tracking to Midleton.

    Maybe it covers a lot of km?

    Maybe there is more to signalling that I expect? I thought one aspect of ECTS is a lack of line-side poles with lights, so that cost is removed?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,299 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    2600 class sets in Kent station as of 14:04 today are 2601+2602 2605+2616 2606+2615 2617+2614  2610+2613

    219 is the loco at the back/front of the Dublin train. There an ICR set there next to the engine shed.

    Post edited by Itssoeasy on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    We are getting ETCS Level 1, so it is superimposed over traditional lineside signals. Level 2 is needed to display aspects in cab, without the need for lineside signals.

    Below is what the driver sees on screen on our system.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,136 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Separate question: from the image it can be seen that ETCS uses kilometres per hour as a speed. Is it going to make sense in future to change our railway network from miles/h to kilometres per hour because of this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,672 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    We should do that anyways, and change all mileposts, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Would that not increase driver workload? Of course, if Dublin could agree with London that they would legislate ETCS 1 as a sufficient replacement for their signalling system including changing to km, and Dublin throwing in say 50% of the cost, that would simplify matters. But then there would be some voices in NI that would damn that as “increased divergence from Britain, another regulatory Irish Sea border” or whatever



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,744 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Can't see them changing to km/h.

    The digital speed display on the 22000 is also in km/h and the clock has both km/h / mph.

    Could be wrong but newer DART fleet might be in km/h.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Test train for ETCS doesn't have mph, just kph. I'll have a look and see what's coming on the new trains.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    ETCS is always in kph, while running under ETCS the speed limits are shown in the ETCS display so you don't need to do any math or conversion

    DART has been fully metric since 1984, ATP display is in kph, OHLE datum is in metres. First revenue use of ETCS will be DART.

    On the test train there is a conversion chart on the centre window pillar as once away from ETCS coverage it will be metric speedometer as there is only the ETCS display now.

    The analog speedometers fitted across the fleets are dual mph/kph units



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    It's switched back to analogue on that train now, as it's back in regular service the past couple of weeks.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,136 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Didn’t say anything about the UK, I know well they will never use km. The only cross border line in the Republic is the one to Belfast so I don’t see how that’s a barrier to changing our own network. Just speed limits, not too sure about the mileposts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭Ireland trains


    https://www.96fm.ie/news/96fm-news-and-sport/works-to-twin-track-glounthaune-to-midleton-rail-line-to-start/

    Work to begin in September on twin tracking Glounthaune to Midleton.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2024/0826/1466736-kishoge/

    Looks like some thought has already been given to the next timetable change, with more weekend services on the Kildare line planned (perhaps finally through the park tunnel?)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,005 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Iarnród Eireann tender for Training Lead for new BEMU fleet and ETCS projects;

    This is a call to competition by IE for the procurement of a [Training Lead/consultant for the New Dart+ Fleet and ETCS projects] (the “Contract”). [refer to Contract Notice issued in OJEU on 23rd August 2024 IE are introducing a new Battery Electric Multiple Unit Fleet (BEMU) into operation in December 2025. The new fleet comes with various system The Training Lead for the new Dart Plus Fleet and ETCS projects (network wide) will be responsible for developing operational procedures for the DART Plus and all ETCS systems as they are rolled out across the fleet. The role will also involve coordinating, developing, and delivering training programs and modules for these operational procedures to staff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,672 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    A question about fleet plans.

    As the trains from the Alstom framework order are delivered and deployed across the GDA during the next few years, I think the idea is to move some or all of the 29000 DMU class out of the GDA.

    And maybe some 22000 ICR sets will be replaced by the new trains.

    Will this mean enough extra stock that there can be more frequency on regional routes? For example, Sligo line, Mayo line, Galway, Waterford, etc.?

    What is the future of the 2600 class, built in 1993, entered service in 1994? They are 30 years old now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,087 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    it's been discussed here before but the 29Ks are in rag order. I think IE had a tender out to replace the floors in them, but they really need a full refurb, and even then they'll still be noisy, smelly clank-wagons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,130 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    in fairness all of those suburban diesel classes are clank wagons.

    you are correct though the 29s are effectively scrap condition at this stage and need a full refurbishment if they are to remain in service.

    the 22s are a more interesting case as while they have had refurbishments such as new engines ETC, the running of them on stop start suburban services is likely to shorten their life span as they aren't designed for it really.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,130 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the future of the 2600s is hard to say.

    yes they are 30 years old but they are quite similar to the 2800s which are nearly 25 years old now and both classes likely have quite a lot of life left in them yet.

    the electrification/BMUfication will free up 22000s certainly, but how much of an increase in services that will allow is probably unknown at this stage, but it will allow for an increase as suburban runs do require quite a lot of them.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,672 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Thanks.

    Yes, the 2800 are grand.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,884 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The floors are being renewed as we speak.

    On the flip side, the 29k fleet has to be one of the reliable fleet of trains IE have ever bought.

    For all the negatives that you posted, that's is a major plus.



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